The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Ive been looking up what israelites think


#1

Ive been looking up what rabbis and Jewish people think that are scholarly in their work.

I find it interesting almost every rabbi ive listen to about gehinnom says that it is for purification. Only one has said that there are some really bad apples who wouldnt get out of gehenna.

Just figured id pass along the idea to look into even what israelite teachers think on the issue of “hell” and what ive personally found.

Its interesting that, if israelites today, would still believe gehenna is a place to be purified that it would mean any less to the israelites of Christs day.


#2

I looked into it a while ago. The Talmud says people who call other people a derogatory name are tormented forever, but oddly murderers and rapists aren’t.


#3

I dont know how i personally feel, in the face of scripture about the dead knowing nothing at all etc, about a place of purification. But I will say it would strike me as odd that what the jewish people would have seen gehenna figuratively as a place of purifying and that was somehow twisted into a eternal torture chamber.

As far as the verse about people calling someone a name id have to see the hebrew. Im no linguist but if the word there is olam it wouldnt mean forever in the sense that we define it. Or at least thats what i know about the word olam.


#4

This forum theme, brings a song to mind.

“Before you marry a person, you should first make them use a computer with slow Internet service to see who they really are.”-- Will Ferrell


#5

never heard that song. Not usually my kinda jam. but it is very catchy.


#6

It doesn’t rely on olam. The context makes it clear that some people are eternally punished.

BABA METZIAH – 58b
Abaye asked R. Dimi: What do people [most] carefully avoid in the West [sc. Palestine]?
— He replied: putting others to shame. For R. Hanina said: All descend into
Gehenna, excepting three. ‘All’ — can you really think so! But say thus: All
who descend into Gehenna [subsequently] reascend, excepting three, who descend
but do not reascend, viz., He who commits adultery with a married woman,
publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet [nickname] upon his
neighbor. 9;Fastens an epithet; — but that is putting to shame! — [It means], Even
when he is accustomed to the name.


#7

this really worries me. I have not always been so kind to people, even after being dragged to faith in Christ. I just dont wanna suffer forever. I go through a lot of suffering now with m.d.d and stomach issues. And it just scares me that it would be a minuscule to eternally suffering. And that suffering has also nudged me in the way of believing God could not destine this misery on someone forever. I mean i suppose He could but the thought does not sit right with my soul.

The one thing i would ask in light of that would be

If God wills to save all people, and counsels all things according to His will, How are some not saved?
How can one believe in a loving God who is the author of endless misery for even one?
If torment for sin is love, then are religious extremists loving those they murder or torture?


#8

ATR, you’re not Jewish, so why worry over what the Talmud says??


#9

I tend to worry about a lot of things. Even when they shouldnt concern me. Im a worry wart. One of my biggest fears is that I might be wrong about something that will contribute to my post mortem state. Idk. Im just weird like that I suppose.

Truly, having gone through many sufferings, I dont want anyone or anything to suffer forever. Even if its not me.


Faith and/or Works?
#10

The Talmud is a collection of Rabbinic tales. Remember what Paul said about then? Pay no attention! According to Orthodox Judaism the “oral Torah” was literally given to Moses directly by God. Yet the Talmud is full of scientific errors. There’s no way it’s inspired.


#11

Non Christian Jewish views, e.g. the Pharisees, around the time of Christ are usually considered to support endless annihilation or endless torments for the wicked. The Old Testament is one of the exceptions to that. The Sadducees didn’t believe in an afterlife for anyone.


#12

maybe “still” isnt correct to use there then i suppose. Admittedly I dont know what ancient israelites believed just, incorrectly, assumed its what israelites of today believed.


#13

There are other verses in the Talmud that teach eternal torment. I’ve heard Jews say ET is reserved for only a tiny minority of mankind, but if the Talmud were true a lot of people would end up being eternally tormented.


#14

That is an interesting point. If in fact 70 AD was the second book end or the consummation of the ending of the old covenant and the starting point of the new covenant, we would have to ask, who are the Jews today and are they Israelites (of the OT bible), if in fact Gods prophesy was successful.


#15

I dont personally believe in preterism though I respect your beliefs if thats what you believe.

My main question would be at what point was death abolished and why is there still tears and a curse upon people.


#16

I’m a tentative preterist. I don’t expect a physical return of Christ, but I don’t completely rule out the possibility.


#17

I respect all peoples beliefs. And Im never to say anyone is wrong, just share my beliefs in return and ask questions.

Like above theres just a few things in revelations to me that dont seem to have come true if it only pertained to the destruction in 70 a.d.

For instance the lion and the lamb (some translations now say wolf and the lamb) should lie down together. Since I believe in the reconciliation of ALL things, that in the heavenly realm and on earth, I always assumed this was a metaphor of Christ (lamb) being at peace with the adversary (the roaring lion). But even if we are to take this verse literally instead of figuratively, I dont see lions or wolfs lying beside lambs peacefully right now.

And there is still death and suffering. Even if we consider death figurative here, such as sinning or not being at peace with God or something, it still wouldnt really make too much sense in my opinion.


#18

I would disagree. If you take the texts as per from a covenant understanding and as relayed, Israel has indeed been reconciled and there has been a bringing together of Christ who is both the Lion of Judah and the lamb of God.


#19

what of death still reigning? Im assuming, not condescending but genuinely assuming, that you see death as figurative for something else?


#20

Yes please do a little research, not figurative but spiritual. Death, world, flesh etc are all words that portray the old covenant system (of Israel) vs the new covenant in Christ. Death, IMO was the separation man had when Adam disobeyed God. Death was defeated, when God, (and you seem to be a person in your posts that thinks God is in total control) took it upon himself to be both parties to the Abahamic covenant, (see the scriptures about cutting the animal in half and walking through it) God decided HE was the only one capable of making such a covenant and loved HIS creation so much he decided to covenant with them in spite of them selves. Thus OUR God and savior sent Christ. Christ was the SAVIOR of the world in the time he walked the earth. The world being the old covenant Jews who tried to cling to the law for salvation. Christ and the apostles railed against it. Your death, as I see it and scriptural death are two different things.

Look I am not a teacher and have no interest in pressing my belief. There are some very sharp folks who really run with this idea.

If you search them out it could be kind of fun.:wink: