The Evangelical Universalist Forum

I've made peace with Anni... for now

Hello all,

I posted “For those who were Anni but are now UR”. I am an Annihilationist when it comes to eternal destiny and so I was curious why someone might move from Anni to UR. I got plenty of answers (scriptural, philosophical/theological, emotional).

I studied those passages and tried to interpret them best I could but there are just too many variables and I am not trained to exegete Greek and Hebrew yet. It’s just too hard for me to figure out right now. So I will put this issue to the side for a while. I believe that the Anni or CI position is a legitimate interpretation of the relevant texts and I am already strongly hopeful about universalism anyway.

I’ve read some posters here say that without UR being true it would be hard for them to love God or have hope but I don’t feel that way. I think of it this way: The very worst that could happen is that many (or most) people will be annihilated. A better option is that many (or most) will be saved and there will only be a few who will be annihilated. And the very best would be that all be saved. Those three options or any range in between them is something I can have peace with-- I can live without cognitive dissonance and still hold to that view (unlike ECT or hyper-Calvinism).

But I I’ve made peace with Anni for now and perhaps will study the issue again after I have attended seminary (God-willing).

Thank you for being kind enough to help me try to understand the issues better.

God bless,
Warren

I believe that the Anni or CI position is a legitimate interpretation of the relevant texts and I am already strongly hopeful about universalism anyway.

CI is certainly a legitimate interpretation and probably is about equal in evidence to CU or UR. CU can’t be proved it’s more like a weight of the evidence proposition but to me the most important single factor is that it’s God’s will for all to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth.
God’s will IMHO is the strongest force in the universe, so if the statement is literal and not hyperbole then i think CU is inevitable.

None of them can be proved. You cannot even prove that God exists. So, all beliefs are, more or less, on equal footing. I guess the question is: Why is Hell more believable than not?

Regardless, I don’t particularly have a problem with Annihilation if it is merely stated as “God just doesn’t raise to life the ones who never responded” - The problem is, according to Revelation, God doesn’t think that leaving them dead is enough punishment, so he decides to raise them, only to kill them again? Seems, pretty silly right? What point is there in saying “I was right, and you were wrong, now I am going to annihilate you” the one who is annihilated cannot learn from the rebuke and the torment from the rebuked is non-lasting, since he ceases to be. In this way, if I am interpreting Revelation correctly, Annihilation makes no sense. If I am not interpreting it correctly, then Annihilation still makes sense, since leaving someone dead is a just punishment (depending on your viewpoint). They had life, lived it and died. God decided, based on how they lived, that they are not fit for the next life. While I don’t subscribe to this viewpoint, I don’t see any wrong or injustice with it. Hence, if I die and God never raises me from the dead, I won’t know it. There is no injustice in that.

That said, it wouldn’t answer all my family who were raised from saying “Wow, I miss Dad and I am sad that God decided not to raise him” they could and possibly would be sad by this result. But, if they knew that God judged rightly, we likely could still miss them, but still know it was just on God’s part. Again, I don’t subscribe to this, BUT I do not see any problem with it.

I believe God will save all. We must be razed before we can be raised. I have so many reasons I believe that is true, and each and every day the confidence grows stronger. Either God will raise us all, or there is no personal God. That is where I stand.

The problem is, according to Revelation, God doesn’t think that leaving them dead is enough punishment, so he decides to raise them, only to kill them again? Seems, pretty silly right?

They way you describe it Gabe makes it sound silly but we do know they get tossed into the lake of fire. What happens in the LOF is not clear but very likely there is a good purpose to it even if annihilation is true or partially true.

Hi Warren, great post. I very much agree with your thoughts on UR and anni. I am a hopeful URist but due to my doubts, my ‘default’ position is anni. We didn’t used to be alive and so if we go out of existence again, I don’t see this as a barrier to loving God. Everything I’ve been learning about our heavenly Father recently (particularly through this forum and The Sanctuary Downtown, (their media section), is making me ever more hopeful that God can and will redeem the hardest heart, and so the idea of God putting people out of existence is looking less likely. :wink:

I understand all of that mate. I’m glad that you appear to have found some level of peace about the ultimate future, even if, as you point out, it’s certainly not the best option.

I hope you do indeed get to study further into it at some point in the future and I hope God continues to pour over you his peace that surpasses all understanding. :wink:

Hi Warren,
I’ve been an Annihilationist (now UR) and like Catherine it would be my default second option (if one can have options).
The problem that I have with it is that a). It doesn’t resolve the ‘death’ issue caused by sin, it simply ratifies the fact that death has the last say - hardly an enemy destroyed. b). However much the saved might agree that God is right in slaying the unrepentant, those who love the lost will grieve over the lost, presumably eternally; and as Tom Talbott points out, the closer we are to fulfilling the Law of Christ by not only loving our friends but our enemies, as we love ourselves, the more this grief will be felt, however justified we feel their removal has been.
Now the SDA’s who are Anni ( I have affiliations) try and get around this by suggesting that God wiping away all tears will involve a wiping of painful memories, including those of the lost, once we are satisfied God has done the right thing in annihilating them - yes a little bazaar and another reason for rejecting the whole thing.c) Finally, it just doesn’t seem to smack of the great victory of Christ’s kingdom where all creation is reconciled and all enemies defeated, bringing glory to God.

Given all that Anni has to be a better proposal than ECT.
Cheers S.

I guess I’m quite hardline about my universalism these days.

Although incomparable to the grotesque horror of hellism, I find annihilationism morally and theologically objectionable. Any God who would instantiate a universe where billions (the majority?) of his ‘children’ suffered, died and then were annihilated (painfully?) isn’t worthy of worship, imho.

Only a full universalist God can truly be God, as far as I can see.

So although I agree that all three main eschatological positions can be scripturally supported and are biblically valid, only one is theologically and ethically rational (imho).

I have a hard time coping with the idea that people in heaven would be ‘ok’ with the eternal separation from their loved ones.

And I used to be an annihilationist, and before that a hellist. I am happier now.

Pog,

I understand where you are coming from. I just have a few thoughts.

Firstly, although many Annihilationists believe that the damned will suffer before being annihilated, I do not. Glenn Peoples makes a great case that the wages of sin truly is straight-forward death and adding suffering to it is unnecessary and not particularly loving.

Secondly, if Anni is true, that does not necessarily mean that the majority of people who have ever lived will be annihilated. That is a possibility, but I am also an inclusivist and I believe in the possibility of post-mortem repentance. Add that to the people who do know Jesus in this life and the overall graciousness of God, and perhaps only a small amount of people will ultimately be annihilated. For instance, if 92% of humanity is saved and the other 8% is annihilated, does that really mean God is a total failure?

Thirdly, while I can see your passion and I very (very!) much want universalism to be true, I think you should be careful because we don’t know that it is for sure. You said that if God doesn’t save everyone He is not worthy of worship and that He would not truly be God. If Annihilation is true then that means you are really blaspheming God by saying that. Jesus said we will have to give account for every careless word we speak.

Fourthly, I agree that not being with your loved ones will be very hard. I don’t know how to respond to that at this time.

Finally, I think I would be much happier as a universalist as well, but I need to do the proper exegetical study and I only want to commit to it because I believe the Scripture teaches it. As I said before, I just don’t have the tools to do that right now, which is why I’m putting this issue off for a few years.

Blessings,
Warren

That is a much more palatable version of Anni :slight_smile:. No pointless suffering, and it being a minority.

But, yes, if 8% are lost then it does mean God is a total failure - because He actualised a universe where He couldn’t guarantee an eventual good outcome for all creatures, which given that He is omniscient and the source of logic and time and the ground of the universe itself, makes it unreasonable to suppose He is also omnibenevolent. Either He can ensure an eventual perfect outcome, or He’s not a maximally great being, or He’s not good, or shouldn’t have created the universe and we are obligated to return our ticket - it is not moral to accept a place in heaven that was bought at the expense of the damnation of even one being, leg alone 8%.

If annihilation is true then God is able to explain it me in a fair and convincing manner post mortem and I will repent. If universalism is true then annihilationism is blasphemy. I would rather be caught thinking God is nicer, smarter and wiser than He actually is, than be caught thinking He’s more wrathful, and incapable than He is.

We cannot know anything for sure, even that God (or each other) exists. But I can know that if a God exists then it is more reasonable to portray Him as a universalist God than an Anni God because of the soundness of the ethical arguments for universalism contra annihilationism. Additionally, I can be as sure if universalism as I am of God’s existence - which is strong enough that I might as well as use the word know.

The tears in heaven problem (missing loved ones) is a strong argument against being able to rationally ascribe annihilationism to God. If there is no answer to it, then for now at least, it is more reasonable for you to accept the stronger ethical theology (EU) than the weaker.

Exegesis probably won’t settle the issue for you. Consider that greater theologians, far more erudite and educated than either of us will ever be in the scriptures, have arrived utterly convinced at all three eschatologies. Scripture is too ambiguous and polyvalent to settle the issue.

Consider it another way: if all three afterlife scenarios are equally exegetically valid then how will choose between them? I suggest that it would be more reasonable to go with the paradigm that was better supported by ethical philosophy, and which provided a more glorious view of God, bad which more aligned with your own personal desires and intuitions and happiness.

Interesting discussion.

I personally thought that Pog’s point was about the suffering before death rather than after. If it was not, then I would like to make that point. I am convinced that many lives are full of suffering, sometimes immense and relentless. It is rational to understand that some of those poor lives will be amongst the ‘annihilated’. That gives me a problem in trying to believe in a God of Love who annihilates some after they have suffered this ‘veil of tears’. ( I do not believe in open theism).

Not trying to talk you out of it Warren, but…

3.) (out of order obviously, but I wanted to state an important agreement first) Fundamental reality is what it is, and we can either cooperate with it or not, and that will still be true even if fundamental reality fails or stops or never even intends on saving sinners from sin.

Keeping in mind I’m someone who thinks any theism less than ortho-trin is ultimately incoherent, and that any soteriology less than universal salvation is also ultimately incoherent (and typically either accidentally or intentionally non-trinitarian at bottom, so incoherent that way, too :wink: ): I do agree if God turns out to be non-universalistic after all we’ll just have to make do with it the best we can or else be in knowing rebellion against the source of our existence.

(This agreement includes (4) and (5) in principle and in practice, of course. :slight_smile: )

Now, if you were really putting the exegetical issue aside for now you’d be agnostic on the topic instead of at peace for now with anni. But I’m saying that to assume in your favor that you regard the exegetical case as strong enough proportionately in favor of some version of anni vs ECT or Kath (in any variations), to make peace with believing anni (for now anyway). And that’s okay.

1.) I wouldn’t want to be the person trying to make an exegetical argument against God acting to cause some kind of inconvenient personal state to at least some sinners post-mortem; and the exegetical evidence sure looks to me like the personal inconvenience is greater than a painless euthanasia. (I’d add that I find the exegetical argument for any kind of hopeless punishment from the Romans “wages of sin” statement to be super-faulty, but that’s beside the point.)

From a purely philosophical standpoint, though – since Glenn is first and foremost a philosopher – we aren’t even talking about (mere!) supernaturalistic theism yet if God isn’t actively keeping people in existence; consequently (assuming annihilation for purposes of argument) people could only cease to exist as such due to God’s active choice to stop maintaining them as persons in existence. Yet God doesn’t simply annihilate any sinner out of existence immediately upon their rebellion against the source of their existence. So obviously there are other factors about God’s intentions for the person.

In other words, in at least some (and apparently all) cases, God adds something to the situation other than straight-forward death.

But on Glenn’s position (as reported) any suffering God adds beyond choosing for sinners to cease to exist would be unnecessary and not particularly loving; which would necessarily have to include raising the wicked (bodily or not, but especially bodily) to the judgment of annihilation, and also any disciplinary action by God before death. Just how far is Glenn prepared to go in denying generally accepted actions of God, in order to be logically consistent on this point?

2.) Does an 8% annihilation (or any small number) really mean God is a total failure? Depending on what God’s goals are, yes, it does. For example if God pledges His own name and self-existence on the success of X, and only partially succeeds at X with no future success possible, that final failure would be catastrophically total for all reality. Or similarly, if the Father and the Son (God self-begetting and God self-begotten) covenant with one another to accomplish X but one or both partially fail at accomplishing X, that’s ontologically catastrophic.

Similarly again, if God’s own active self-existence upon which all reality depends for existence, involves God fulfilling fair-togetherness between persons, then any action of God toward ultimately fulfilling non-fair-togetherness between persons would be for God to act against His own source of (self-)existence, just as if we did that, even (just like us) if the person so acted against was only a creature. For God to be finally defeated along this line (instead of choosing to act such a way) would still be equivalent to defeating God’s own self-existence.

Relatedly, though perhaps less catastrophic, if the goal of the Son’s judgment in raising those who do the bad things to “eonian judgment” is to bring all persons to honor the Father (without even counting trinitarian or non-trinitarian theologies) as the Son honors the Father, and the Son fails to do so in even one person’s case, then at the very least this would mean the judgment entrusted to the Son by the Father has failed into a final injustice (either triumphing finally over justice or enacted by ultimate justice Himself). The higher the Christology, the more catastrophic this failure would be, but it’s nothing for even a non-trinitarian to take lightly as a proposition.

Obviously if God’s goal is to annihilate 8% of rebels and save 92% of them, and God has no higher goals conflicting with that result, then God would actually totally succeed by saving 92%! – and that’s a position a Calvinist would try to take, on what amounts tacitly or explicitly to double-predestination. (I think I recall Glenn being some kind of Calv, and this would be relevant to his own categorical soteriology if so.) But then there’s no reason to be talking about whether 8% annihilated counts as an acceptable failure rate or not: that can only be a broadly Arminianistic concern.

Indeed pilgrim that was my point. You made it better than I, though :slight_smile:. And, I am also an open theist. But that’s a complex debate for another time, lol.

Jason,

Interesting thoughts. Glenn Peoples is a five-point Calvinist. I am not. I absolutely believe that God truly does want to save everyone, that Jesus lived and died for everyone, that salvation is offered to everyone, etc. So that is why I could never be a Calvinist. But then Calvinists do really emphasize that God is powerful enough to save everyone He wants to and I think that makes sense.

I think that is why many people are universalists. Calvinists affirm God is able to save all but not willing, Arminians affirm God is willing to save all but is not able (or He is able, but He allows people to reject Him, or something). Universalists say He is both willing and able, and so all are saved.

I think I know how you will answer his question, but if I say that God saves 92% but not 8% (for example), how will I resolve the 8%? Is it because God does not want to save them really or He is not able? Calvinists could agree with the first but I cannot because I believe God does really want to save everyone. As an Arminian will I have to say He really just cannot save them, that it is His beyond His ability? I do not want to say that God is unable to do something, especially like save sinners. It is a hard subject. I just don’t know.

Warren

I think you’ve answered yourself in that post, Warren.

Might it be that what is keeping you from embracing universalism is not any issue with the logic or the theology, but a concern over the strength of the exegesis of scripture? Maybe it seems that the bible is more obviously hellist or annihilationist than universalist?

Pog,

Yes that’s exactly it. I think the logic and theology of universalism make perfect sense but there are many passages that do seem incredibly annihilationist. And what I’m saying is that I do not have the exegetical tools or knowledge of the original languages such that I can adequetly “explain away” those passages or make sense of the universalist-sounding passages.

That is why I am putting off the issue for a while until I am more equipped to deal with the exegesis. But until then I have made peace with Annihilation because that is how I currently interpret the relevant texts and I think that Annihilation is not morally objectionable the way that you do. That doesn’t mean there are not unanswered questions (e.g. how will we feel about those annihilated, the whole Arminian “is He really not able or does He really not truly want them to be saved or something else?” thing) But even if I become universalist there will be unanswered questions.

Warren

That makes sense Warren, but consider:

A) if the greatest exegetes and theologians that have ever been cannot agree, what makes you think you’ll be able to exegetically solve the dilemma?

B) do you believe in YEC? The bible is more plainly interpreted in that manner (quite possibly), yet because such a view would create all manner of conflicts with reason, experience, history, science, theology etc many prefer either OEC, ID or TE. Perhaps similar cases can be found with regard OT terror texts and the preferable allegorical readings of the Early Church. In other words, it seems that exegesis is not the final arbiter of theological truth, and that there can be cases where a weaker exegetical position is given preference because of extra-biblical reasons. What if universalism is like that? After all, it is clearly more ethically sound - and likely more logical and theologically rich as you have noted in your previous post.

C) do you really need to wait upon a depth of exegetical skill (which may never arrive) to be able to determine that interpretations that paint God in a less glorious and moral light (not to mention internally inconsistent) are to be rejected in favour of ones that present God as utterly good? You would not accept a portrayal of God as murderer or torturer, would you? So why not just dismiss annihilationism on the same ethical basis?

Pog,

A) I don’t think that I can “solve the dilemma” and like, unite all of Christendom behind the correct doctrine of eternal destiny :slight_smile: I just have to come to my own view regarding the matter. Just like those great exegetes and theologians have come down on one side of the issue (for example, Luther believed in ECT, John Stott favored annihilation, while William Barclay was Universalist), I have to come down on one side too. Even you have come down on one side of the issue and I’m sure you’ve done so at least partially because of the exegetical evidence. So it’s not really a matter of everyone agreeing, it’s about what I believe the correct doctrine is, according to the testimony of scripture, reason, tradition and experience.

B) Good point. I will keep that in mind when I look into this issue later on, and perhaps that will be irrelevant because the biblical evidence will point to CU.

C) No I do not need to wait until I have a certain level of scholarly knowledge to determine that certain views of God are incorrect. I don’t have an advanced degree and I know hyper-Calvinism is wrong. However, I do not think that conditional immortality/annihilation is really that immoral. I don’t think it makes God a murderer or a monster or something, so I cannot dismiss Anni on that basis.

Pog,

I really appreciate our interaction, and I know that you’re pushing me to ask tough questions, but I don’t think this conversation is going to end on a resolved note. I don’t think I’m going to be persuaded to become universalist right now and for me, personally, I want to make sure that I really do believe it and that I am justified in believing it.

It was the same thing when I decided to leave the Catholic Church to become Anglican. That is a huge move to make, and should not be made lightly, especially not on the basis of limited interaction on a internet forum. So when I decided to leave the Roman Church it was something I had prayed about, searched the Scriptures, and researched diligently. By God’s good favor I believe I made the right decision (although of course I have nothing but love and respect for Roman Catholics).

I believe becoming a universalist is a similar such decision and so I think that I just need more time, more prayer, more searching of the Scriptures to make that decision. With my university studies piling up and the fact that I have not been formally trained yet, I believe my study of universalism cannot be resolved right now. I just wanted to let everyone on the site know that I appreciated their help and that they gave me a lot of good things to think about.

Blessings,
Warren

No worries warren. I realise that you don’t want me to push you further so I won’t. It seems obvious that the only real difference between us is that you don’t see annihilation as immoral and I do. How does one resolve that? :slight_smile:

Anyway, take care.