The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jehovah's Witnesses (and marrying other beliefs or unbeliefs

Practices Christian Living
#1

Hi. I have been thinking about this for a few days as it relates to other things (politics, talking with eters, etc) but when a Jehovah Witness showed up at my door today, I figured “what the hay”, I’ll post. I didn’t and don’t really feel much compulsion to share ANYTHING of my beliefs with people I don’t know. Years ago, I would have felt like I HAD to try and set this lady straight, it was my duty. But now? No. She didn’t try to engage me in any conversation, just wanted to invite me to a meeting they were having. I said thank you and she left.

Here’s my thing: Once upon a time, when I believed in ET, I was quite sure I KNEW what I was talking about. :smiley: When I came across UR, everything I thought I knew was destroyed in seconds. Since then, I have found it impossible to be dogmatic about everything, anything. It’s not that I don’t believe in UR, it’s not that I agree with Jehovah’s Witnesses, it’s just like we all see what we are willing and ready to see. And, well, I HAVE been wrong before. Tons. I kinda ASSUME it and I feel like I have no right to try and set someone else straight.

Having said that, I wouldn’t just be mum about destructive behavior, it seems like for the most part, people agree what destructive behavior is. But these bigger issues… Not so much. And not so much do I feel compelled to share…Unless I have good reason to know the door is open…Thoughts?

#2

On one hand, I too do not feel compelled to try and set people straight. On the other hand I do often feel compelled to share the reason for the hope that is within me, the good news of the love and grace of God as revealed in Jesus. If the person is receptive and God is working in his heart, then I look for ways to work with Him, to allow Him to speak to the person through me. But I don’t feel or think I have the need to judge the person or try to manipulate the person in any way to do or say what I think he needs to do or say. In fact, being “eternal life” to me is about having a restored relationship with God, about seeking to get heaven into people instead of people into heaven, I understand something as small as a smile or showing genuine care as being a means of helping people. I always share the love of God and when I can I use words to share it too!

I haven’t spoke with a JW since having to come to trust in Jesus as the savior of the World. I did speak with some Mormons and found them to have a very sincere faith in God and in Jesus and love for God and Jesus. I’ve never read the book of Mormon so they encouraged me to do so saying that it bore witness with their hearts as being truly inspired. I haven’t read it yet but might some day.

Having faith that Jesus does not fail to save anyone has set me even more free from being negative and judgmental towards others.

#3

In reading this, the passage in Revelation to the church about being hot or cold comes to mind. It would seem that God would rather we embraced one side or the other. I guess it’s a leap of faith either way. I’m exactly like “Sass” was though, I totally embrace ET . . . not knowing there was “another way”. And now that I’ve crossed over with all the rest of you heretics, I’ve embraced UR even more than I did ET. It’s not about personal confidence, it’s about personal experience. After letting go of all the stuff I thought I knew, the clarity of light is so much more nourishing to me than trying to “learn” facts.

#4

I don’t think I’ve been approached by either Mormons or JW’s in the past ten years or so; but even if I was, our main differences would start at the level of God’s existence, long before we reached soteriology. So from that perspective I wouldn’t have much different to say to them in reply. I believe the single ultimate fact of all reality is intrinsically and essentially love (not merely is loving)–which is a colorfully simply way to say that I believe orthodox trinitarian theism is true–and they can’t offer me anything better than that. :slight_smile: Anything less is less.

If they want to try offering me less, they’re welcome to try–I can respect the concept that ultimate reality is less than I believe it to be–but usually they aren’t: they’ve been trained to stay on a very particular path of witness and, for efficiency’s sake (and to keep themselves from being misled, as they see it) they don’t stray far off it. Move on along then, have a good day. Oh, you have a burning witness in your heart that something is true? Me, too! :smiley: Not the same things, at bottom, though. I hope someday you’ll come to believe in true love as the foundation of all reality, and reject anything less. :slight_smile:

#5

lol ‘‘and they cant …’’ if all they offer is a GOD who condemns [forever] all who don’t believe in that kind of GOD ,compared to a GOD who to one degree or another shall correct them ,disapproving their mistakes yet restoring them how can they offer me anything better than that ?

#6

EVERYONE believes that God is love whether it be ETers, the so called “Christian cults”, even other religions. What they do is LIMIT who can actually EXPERIENCE this love. Since God IS in FACT love and love is ALL He EVER DOES, EVERYONE with their eyes even slightly open to it MUST experience it in some way for: it rains on the just and the unjust.

So it’s interesting to me that our (all humans of every persuasion) experience of God’s love COULD BE THE VERY THING THAT JUSTIFIES US IN OUR WRONG BELIEFS because we are attributing the experience of His love to our right beliefs. Very interesting indeed.

#7

Which involves contradicting a belief that God is in fact love. :slight_smile:

It isn’t as easy to consistently believe God is love as it seems from the simplicity of the statement–which is why even if a Mormon believed in universal salvation I still wouldn’t be a Mormon.

Though no doubt it is better to inconsistently believe God is love than to consistently believe God is not love.

#8

Hahaha…Right. :laughing:

#9

I am engaged to a JW and so read their literature. JW’s are kinda odd in their belief. They pretend to do ‘bible studies’ but at no time are you to interpret anything in the Bible without it first being ‘discovered’ by Watchtower or written in the Awake magazine. They believe Michael (the Archangel) is Jesus, and that there is more than one God and therefore the distinction is by what Name is your God, and of course they call Him Jehovah. The don’t believe in Eternal Hell, but rather paradise on Earth for those who are resurrected and permanent death for those who don’t (except for the 144,000 who inherit heaven).

They are pretty confused though, I have asked many very simple questions and they don’t have answers and they most definitely do not believe I would have any answers to give, so it is pretty much useless to discuss anything with them.

#10

Wow, AU, I didn’t know that about you. Ouch.

God’s luck with that! :slight_smile: At least you’re in a position to actually marry her, challenging though that will be. :sunglasses:

(I can’t even rightly hope to be with my most loved. But she wouldn’t be nearly that theologically difficult either, being more of a positive agnostic with aesthetic pagan appreciations.)

#11

Just curious, what does the passage about being “unequally yoked” mean to you then if you choose to “marry” a person that has a belief of such extremes? Won’t that have an affect on your relationship?

#12

I’ll be curious what AU says on this, too.

As for me, it depends on whether I’ve been given by God to someone whose theological beliefs are less or significantly different from mine (which of course I would also regard as being “less” but in a different way. :wink: ) Whether I am correct or not about having been given to a particular woman, I have come to believe I was given to some particular woman the night her soul was born in the womb, back in the summer of 1980 (probably around midsummer’s eve, forty days after I accepted Christ’s salvation and professed my allegiance to Him, submitting to believer’s baptism. I didn’t realize this at the time, or for many years afterward–I wasn’t even 10 years old yet at the time–but I came to have reasons to believe so afterward, thanks to some… let us call them very very very improbable events. :slight_smile: )

That sort of thing does happen, by scriptural testimony, so it can’t be inherently wrong, even though the stronger ox will suffer and maybe even die as a result (which is the cultural point to the warning about being unequally yoked). The most important and prevalent example is that of Jesus Christ Himself! God gives Him to us in a relationship of which marriage is a sacramental transposition and representation: we all start out as not only unbelievers but even as sinners in need of salvation (or sure to become sinners if we live long enough through childhood)! We’re all unequally yoked to Christ (or else not yet yoked to Christ), Who called and encouraged us to share the yoke with Him!

And the stronger Ox did die, suffering, for the sake of the weaker oxen.

If I am given to an unbelieving wife, to be her husband, then I regard that as being similar to being given the gift of stigmata. It’s a great honor, but people should be warned about the cost expected of them if they seek it out, and they shouldn’t demand it of God.

(This is somewhat aside from the question of whether a convert should stay married to someone who believes very differently about God. Paul is clear enough that they should stay married, and the husband or wife should hope with assurance in God for the salvation of the spouse and the children. After all, it is not the wife or husband who saves their spouse or children!)

Personally, I would regard it as much more of a sacrificial calling to be given to a wife who thought strongly different than I do theologically (or atheologically), than one who was only agnostic.

But on the other hand, it’s also much more sacrificial in a different way to be given as a husband to a wife whom I am not expected to marry but to support her in marrying someone else instead. (Talk about being a “Baptist”… :wink: :slight_smile: “He must increase and I must decrease; the friend of the bridegroom rejoices for the groom.”)

#13

Sass,

Since the topic has shifted somewhat to something more specific, I updated your topic header to reflect that. :slight_smile:

#14

A friend once asked me (and several others) what it took to be a godly husband/wife. I thought about it a moment and replied. “In order for one to be a truly godly husband, one needs a desperately wicked wife!” One one side this was tongue-n-cheek, but absolutely true on the other. I’m often left amazed, even dumbfounded when considering Hosea who God apparently inspired to marry a prostitute and repeatedly redeem her after she had sold herself into slavery/prostitution. It’s a beautiful picture of Unfailing Love!

#15

Heh. When Mormons came to my door, during the second meeting I mostly gave them ecclesiological reasons why I couldn’t bring myself to join their church. They simply nodded and said it’s great how much we agree on the basics, or something. I kinda facepalmed a little inside as I felt they were missing the whole point, but… whatever. :confused: :laughing:

#16

Mormons are universalists, and except for who ‘God’ actually is (They believe He was Adam) and the lost tribes of Israel, their belief system is pretty much unviersalist.

#17

It means to be equals in responsibility and expectations in a marriage.

The belief is not difficult to reconcile and despite their belief that Jesus came only for the ‘144000’ their end times understanding is pretty close to what I believe (except I don’t believe in a nuclear end for the earth, since nobody could inherit that).