The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus as Co-Creator?

Theology Biblical Theology
#21

First, I will quote a passage from Paul that affirms that it is so:

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him.
(Colossians 1:16 ESV)

I think it means that the Son of God created everything directly, but that it was actually the Father who did so through Him as is stated here, and for Him.

The NRSV begins, “For in him all things were created” rather than “by Him.” The Greek word “εν” can mean either one. I don’t think that changes the basic meaning of the verse.

As for your first question, yes, He was begotten in the womb of Mary, but the early Christians taught that long before that, before all ages, He was begotten by the Father as the first of the Father’s acts.

I hope to get back to this question later, with some quotes.

#22

From Ignatius (A.D. 108-A.D. 140) to the Magnesians

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;
but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of
vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the
Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with
man.

#23

My understanding of Colossians 1:16, is
within a completely different context than your putting forward. I also can’t understand your logic in referencing this verse to include the Genesis creational account through Christ.

Firstly :——

Colossians 1:1-18
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit. 9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Every reference Paul makes is concerning the man Christ Jesus — Christ, the son of God was the image of the invisible God here on this earth. Now it seems you and I both agree that the man Jesus didn’t exist before his birth, so how could Paul be referencing, that through Christ all things were made, I don’t see Paul anywhere separating the son who existed prior to his fleshy birth from the man christ within his above writings. So either Jesus Christ the son of God existed before all the ages, through whom all things were created or he didn’t. Jesus Christ is the son of God. The son of God didn’t become Jesus the Christ.

Secondly:——

During Christ’s earthly ministry, he himself made reference to another who created them male and female :—-

Matthew 19:4
4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female”. :——

Once we get past Gods much debated declaration of “ let us make man in our own image” we see that Christ is in fact bang on the money with his statement.

Genesis 1:27
*27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2:21
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.

In reading the above scriptures, I would say it’s pretty evident christ didn’t create/ Make man. Therefore he did not create all things within the context you suggest. The all in Colossians I believe is within in a limited sense that fits the context of Paul’s teaching, and not all in it’s in its entirety sense [ie] The kids drank all the milk, “yes”, all the milk in the house not all the milk in the world.

I say this respectfully :—- I didn’t ask wether the church fathers believed the son was begotten before all ages. I asked you to show me where in the scriptures it says the son was begotten before all ages [ie] before being begotten in Mary’s
womb ?

#24

Note: He was talking to Paidion.

Well, everyone has different perspectives. Let’s see what the Got Questions, Biblical perspective is. :crazy_face:

#25

A statement and a rebuttal. Snippet:

1) Compared to creatures and false gods, there are three agents who stand out in the OT: Yahweh, the Spirit of Yahweh, and the Angel of Yahweh. These are presented as occupying the divine side of reality .

It’s conspiracy-theory level misunderstanding of the Old Testament to assert that those are three agents, or that in the Old Testament books there are three personal agents, three selves who are “on the divine side of reality.” One can consult actual mainstream scholarly sources here, and one will find that there is one who is the Most High God in the Old Testament, a single “who,” with the personal name “Yahweh.” It’s interesting, but disturbing, how many recent apologists have convinced themselves, via very selective reading, that the Jews were always basically trinitarians, or at least that they thought more than one “Person” was God.

And yet the trinitarian apologist nowadays will typically say that “God is one ‘what’ but three ‘whos’.” Yes, that seems to contradict with Old Testament theology, where there is one who says that he is the only god who has ever been and will ever be."
" The clear focus of these 27 books is the man Jesus – a human person. But “God the Son” is supposed to be this divine self which is called “human” because of its recent, mysterious relation to a body and soul (which don’t constitute a human person). That is, this “God the Son” is not himself a human person. But on the face of it, no such character appears in the New Testament. Nor is there any “God the Holy Spirit” or “God the Trinity” – all of which is quite surprising if these authors are trinitarians, but which is just what we’d expect if they think the one is the Father – which is what they say .
Article:
https://trinities.org/blog/flailing-against-the-new-testament-part-2/

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#26

Yes, the man Jesus didn’t exist before his birth, but the Son of God existed from the beginning when the God begat him. And this was the same individual, for Jesus has been the Son of God from the beginning of time.

#27

Here is my take for what it’s worth.

Colossians 1:13,-14 more than sets the context of things ;——

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

I would say that Paul has in mind the
new creation God brought in through Christ, and nothing In mind of the original creation [ie] The Genesis creation. It seems in this chapter, Paul’s main concern is pointing out what has been achieved through Christ’s redemptive work and the position of authority Christ has with in this new creation [ie] christ has the highest authority and position overall beings wether human or spiritual. Col l 1:15+17-19 :—-

15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” +
17-19 :— “And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence”

this is not referring to the son being begotten by God before all the ages, this passage is talking about the Christ. Israel has been referred to as Gods first born son, Israel was not the First Nation ever to
exist, but it was the nation chosen of God to head all other nations. Therefore Christ being Gods first born has the same meaning and understanding attached to its title.

Psalm 89 : 26-29.
26 He shall cry to Me ‘You are my Father, My God,and the rock of my salvation 27 Also I will make him My firstborn,The highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall stand firm with him. 29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. :———

Christ has preeminence, He is before all things in rank and honour.Not before in being and time.

Collisions 1:16 speaks nothing of original creation, Paul is careful to point out that
All things [in] the heavens and [on] the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All [these] things were created in him [not by him] and through/dia Him and for Him :- It speaks nothing of rocks, trees, birds etc …
[ [these] added by me for emphasis only.]

Lexicon :: Strong’s G1223 - dia

dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah’)

Definition: through**, on account of, because o**f Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

I believe Paul is saying in this passage all things in this limited sense were created by God in Christ, with Christ in mind, for the very reason of him and for the sake of him. Christ is the first born from the dead, through whom God reconciled all things to himself, weather things on the earth or in the heavens.

In a different context, the very same can be said of John 1:10:—- “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” :— [ie] “For because of him the universe was created.” By God.

Just my thoughts.

#28

Well, I think your thoughts are good! There’s no doubt that there is a new creation in Christ.
And as for the resurrection, He is “the firstborn from the dead” as you quoted. All others will be raised to life at the coming of Christ— either in “the resurrection of the righteous” or “the resurrection of the unrighteous”. But none of his excludes the fact that He was the firstborn of all creation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15 ESV)

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#29

Thanks paidion for your exchange of thoughts. I respect your knowledge and views. In this case, it seems we may have to respectfully agree to disagree on the these finer points.

#30

Here is a word-for-word or phrase-for-phrase translation of the Greek text. I have inserted “things” in brackets only for clarification.

παντα all [things] δια αυτον through him και εις αυτον and into him εκτισται were created.

Also δια αυτον can mean “by means of him.”