This idea seems a bit strange. From what I understand, God alone created the heavens and the earth, and there are many verses in the bible that back it up. In fact, the very first verse in Genesis says “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Being made in the image of God, man also has the ability to create. I would then consider it to be man who is the co-creator. Any thought on this?
Man - I believe - is a co-creator. Let’s see about Jesus. let’s look at the Protestant site Got Questions at Question: “Is Jesus the Creator?”
We can also look at Jesus Christ the son, creator of all things
Of course, non-Trinitarians here will have a different spin on things. Now back to the second question: Is man a co-creator?
Well, from my studies of spiritual traditions, I think thoughts and feelings help shape our reality. If the thoughts and feelings are constantly focused upon God and good things - so much the better. If we focus on negative things, then that is what becomes our reality. Of course, we have constrictions on genetics and environment. Hence, those proposing the health and prosperity movement, New Thought Christianity, and The Secret, have gotten some ideas right
And here is what I’ve shared before, from the visions of contemporary Catholic mystic and stimigta bearer - Tiffany Snow. More on her in Miracle Is Leaving Us. But in The Third Secret ‘The Secret’ Didn’t Tell You, it says this:
Here’s an interesting quote - from the Buddha:
I also think we are connected with nature. How we behave as a whole, does affect how nature behaves. This I’ve learned over the years, from hanging out with those in the Ute, Lakota, and Ojibwe tribal traditions. We just need to look at the Butterfly effect of Chaos theory
But you need to “test the waters for yourself” - to see if what I’m sharing, is fact or fantasy. In other words, take the Buddhist approach or that of the scientist, on these matters. Or one approach of Christian TV evangelist Joel Osteen and his audience. Constantly thank God for something good and specific - before it happens.
**Notice: **This quote only applies to the co-creator stuff. Not the stuff from established Christian creeds, Scripture and traditions.
**P.S. **In accordance with my stated policy, all new links are using the GOO.GL URL shortener (except for things shared on Twitter - then it’s OW.LY). All links referenced prior to that and I’m re-sharing, will use the IS.GD link - which I have proved is safe, in prior threads.
As I see the New Testament statements, the Father created all things THROUGH his Son. That is, the Son was the means through which He, the Father created all things.
Though in the last verse, Paul stated all things were created by the Son, he clearly meant that Jesus was the means. He clarifies this in the latter part of the same verse by saying that all things were created THROUGH Him.
When I read those passages I imagine something like a prism through which light shines; the light, refracted, becomes creation. Obviously this is very poetic and therefore inexact, but the imagery works quite easily for creation happening through the Logos without the Logos being a co-creator - although the character of the Logos is going to affect the nature of the creation, which makes the issue more complex. Then if you’re a Trinitarian (which I am) everything gets even more complicated - but I basically agree with Paidon. A prism does not exude light from within itself; a blueprint does not construct a building; an owner’s manual does not repair a car.
Jesus is the Word of God. God said, and there was. God created through His Word. LOVE your poetry, Anna!
Yes, Jesus is the Word of God—for He is the One who expresses God. And according to first and second century Christians, God begat or generated His as the first of his acts. Even the first edition of the 4th-century Nicene Creed declares Him to have been “begotten before all ages.”
Jesus Himself declared, “I emerged out of the Father and have come into the cosmos, and now I am leaving the cosmos and going to the Father” (literal translation of John 16:28).
For me, the word represents the commands and directions of God which He put into everything that He made. These things direct each creation as the way it should go. For man, Jesus has shown us what these are. We all have the word in our hearts and minds. John 1:3 says, “All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.” I take this to mean that all things were made through God, Him being the source, and without God nothing was made that was made. I believe God gave man the word in the beginning, as Luke 3:38 says, Adam was a son of God. As a non-Trinitarian, to me Jesus was simply God in the flesh. So, technically He would be the creator of the heavens and the earth.
24 “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;”
No co - creator
Well if Jesus is an aspect of God all these definitions could work, i think?
yes, If one believes the son is an aspect of God and pre-existed his birth, it could indeed work. For me personally, any pre-existence is based on faulty reasoning.
OK we will agree to disagree as i think Jesus was “the Angel of the Lord” and possibly “The Word of the Lord” in the OT.
No worries, agreeing to disagree is often the best way to go
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(John 1:3 ESV) — bolding mine
John 1: 3 (GNV)
3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
Yes, the Geneva Bible with its older form or English (NT published in 1557) translates the word “αυτος” as “it”. Do you know of any modern Bible that does so?
I looked up all 286 instances of the various forms of “αυτος” in a modern translation, and in NOT ONE instance is the word translated as “it”.
It just so happens that, just a few days ago, I began my personal translation of the gospel of John.
The words in parentheses are not in the text but were added for clarification:
GOSPEL OF JOHN
- Originally, was the Expression (of God), and the Expression (of God) was with God, and the Expression (of God) was divine.
- He was in the beginning with God.
- All things came into being through Him, and not one thing that came into being, came into being without Him.
- In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of people.
- The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overtaken it.
- There came into being a person sent from God; his name— John.
- He came into witness, in order to bear witness concerning the light so that all might entrust (themselves) through Him.
Come on paidion!! Most if not all modern day translations are translated with a Trinitarian bias. It just happens that in this
instance the translation bias also fits your given understanding. The bishops bible, The Great Bible, Mathews bible, that all pre date the k j v also translate [autos] [it] at John 1:3.
If “the word” of John 1:3 is an “it” and not a person, what about John 1:14?
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This is the same “Word” that is found in verse 3. How can an “it” become flesh? How does one see the glory of an “it”? How does that glory be the glory of the only Son from the Father, if that “only Son” is an impersonal “it”?
Well perhaps the Geneva Bible will enlighten us:
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among vs, (and we sawe the glorie thereof, as the glorie of the onely begotten Sonne of the Father) full of grace and trueth.
Hmmm… although is refers to “the glory thereof” rather than “his glory” it still seems to identify the “Sonne of the Father” with “the Word.” Notice also that the Geneva Bible capitalizes “Word”. That seems to personify “that Word” also.
For me personally, the word/logos in the beginning with God, was nothing less nothing more than Gods plan of creation with in his thoughts [ie] God spoke his thoughts/plan into existence :— “God said” let there be etc …
Logos meaning :—
λόγος lógos, log’-os; from G3004; something said (including the thought) ; by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression :—-Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason ,” or “ plan ”) plural logo I, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.
The world didn’t exist until God spoke his word [ie] His thoughts and plan into existence [all things came into existence through it] On that same principle, I don’t believe Gods son existed until the plan was brought forth in Mary’s womb, where Jesus became the very expression of God in the flesh. Something doesn’t have to pre-exist before it comes into being [ie] did the Earth pre-exist before it became matter. ?
Nowhere have I suggested that Jesus’ pre-existed, that is, existed before the Father begat Him (I am not a Trinitarian). However the Father begat Him as the very expression of Himself. The Father begat Him as Another exactly like Himself, but a different Individual, and always subservient to the Father. However, the Son of God did exist before He was born as a human being—if that’s what you mean by “pre-existing.” And the Father created all things through His only-begotten Son.
All things came into being through Him, and not one thing that came into being, came into being without Him. (John 1:3)
To my knowledge, I don’t think I have ever said :- you say “Jesus pre existed” ? and I am fully aware that you are not Trinitarian.
Yes, rightly or wrongly, I use the term pre existence to mean :- the son existed before
his birth in the flesh, maybe it is better worded as “The son existed before his birth in the flesh”
According to my reading of the scriptures,
Jesus the the son of God was begotten in the womb of Mary.
Luke 1:31 -32
31 And behold you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him jesus:
32 He will be great and will be called the son of the most high. And the lord God will give him the throne of his father David… All written in future tense.
Can you show me the scripture/s that say the son of God was begotten prior to this event ?
How do you suggest all things were created through the son ? Did God make anything or did the son make all on Gods say so ? can you enlighten me further as to what you think is meant by creating all things through the son?