The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus’ parables: what do they say about UR?

All:

As we journey on, I’ve found that I like to come to this site to research specific questions and aspects of UR. And I’ve used the insights of a great many of you in formulating answers/solutions to a myriad of questions about lots of things relating to UR. Far too many to give specific credit to, I’ll just thank ALL of you for sharing your insights and wisdom.

Now I think we’d all agree that, in the parables of Jesus, are contained some of the greatest wisdom ever revealed. We can rightly be joyful to have them. But they can be quirky, in that they can be used to say things which I don’t believe they (ie the original telling) intend. None-the-less, they speak to us. And open our eyes.

It’s a problem of course (good problem from my perspective NOW!!) that I now read with a bias towards Universal Reconciliation. That vision is very clear to me in scripture so I can’t not see it. (Not unlike others who can’t “not see” ECT… I understand that…)

I think I’ve shared with you my attempts to share my understandings of the parable of the sheep and the goats (borrowing, as I admit and thank all for! – from you) even to the point where Jason P actually finds this parable a confirming evidence for UR – not, as many think, a “problem” for UR. (see multiple threads on this site…)

So it seems axiomatic that parables speak in a different “language” and often say not quite what they appear (at first read) to be saying. Be that as it may, I think we would all agree that there surely must be a major point (or two) to a specific parable, and that it is a real potential problem to draw more from a parable than is intended. None-the-less, it can be informative to explore those aspects of a parable which may (or may not) be more peripheral to the main point. But how much can we rely on these more peripheral angles to determine intended truths? It’s an interesting problem.

It would seem very useful to create a sort of “database” for such a list of issues and points and problems and I can think of no better location that here, on this site! (Yes, I’m horribly biased in favor of this site!!!)

Thus I dream of an orderly listing of parables;
main or intended point (or points);
points which might be pertinent, but which are less likely to be intended as the main point;
and definitely not the point of the parable (interesting as it may be to the teller…)

(And I have no idea how this might proceed and be reasonably categorized for future reference and research…)

[size=150]Examples:[/size]

***Sheep and Goats (Matt 25) ***

Intended point (s):**
–warning to believers of complacency, sloth, indolence, laziness in the things/actions which matter most to our Lord; ie taking care of the least of these our brothers…

Pertinent, but more peripheral points of emphasis:
–Yes, there is a dividing time… a time of judgment so to speak…

NOT the point of the parable:
This parable is not about our final destiny; for goats were valuable assets to the farmer and indeed were crucial in the sacrificial system. Not present is a clear indication that this represents an attempt to describe eternal destiny.

OK, that’s very condensed, but you get the idea…

Luke 15’s parables….
Lost coin…

Intended point (s)
– the value/worth of that being sought; the insistent persistence of the seeker (ie our Lord and Savior)

Pertinent, but perhaps more peripheral points of emphasis:
– there is no implied “end point” to the search… it is simply assumed that the search shall not end until it’s purpose if fulfilled…
– the coin has no idea of it’s condition of “lostness”

NOT the point of the parable:
– fill in the blank…

Lost Sheep…
Intended point (s)
– the worth of the sheep (ie contributes to the seekers motivation…)
– the insistent persistence of the Shepherd;
– the Shepherd is the initiator of the search;
**
Pertinent, but perhaps more peripheral points of emphasis:
– the awareness of the sheep of it’s condition;
– this “lost sheep” represent the last one to be reconciled – ie all the rest are safe in the fold…
–The good Shepherd does not use force; He simply carries the lost home, where, it is seems reasonable to presume the sheep should WANT to be…

NOT the point of the parable:
– God does not force us to be saved;
– the lost sheep must make “a choice” about “letting” the Shepherd pick him up and bring him back to the fold! (Once heard a guy in church argue that he could envision a sheep who would “bite” the rescuing Shepherd indicating that it didn’t WANT to be saved! - that’s absurd and awkward to me… yikes!)

Lost Son: (or prodigal Son; or Prodigal Father!)
Intended point (s)
– the loving Father is ALWAYS ready to welcome us home;
– there is nothing WE can say (or, by implication, do) to convince the Father to accept/love us more;
– the Father waits … as long as He must…

Pertinent, but perhaps more peripheral points of emphasis:
– The loving Father’s “restraint”; He appears not to be initiating the return home…

NOT the point of the parable:
– God stands back waiting for US to “make the first move”… (ie this clashes with the idea of the earlier parables that God initiates the searching… there is no “searching” per se here…)
– the waiting Father’s persistence is only implied… should the son wait so long that his father has died, – well, that’s not the point here at all…

Well, I think you get the idea. Of course we would not all categorize the points the same way. Which is part of the delight of this way of teaching! And underscores the brilliance of Jesus as teacher of truths.

I would be greatly blessed to hear how YOU would interpret some of our favorite (and especially some of the more troublesome”) parables. Just how much CAN you read in them of UR? Or, is UR just a hint and suggestion???

This all is motivated by my recent attempts to share the EU site’s wisdom on the parable of the Sheep and the Goats with some of my fellow church members… ie they read into a parable what I think is completely unjustified. And they read OUT of a parable what I think SHOULD be included!

Sigh!

I would love to know how you have incorporated the various parables of Jesus into our understandings of UR…
(and if the above structure “works” for you…)

Blessings,

Bobx3 (TotalVictory)

I think Christ’s parables are not about universal reconciliation, but about entering the Kingdom, the growth of the Kingdom, and about the culmination of the Kingdom. Seven of His parables begin with, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” (Matt.13:31,34,44,45,47,52;20:1)

Paidon is right. Jesus parables talks about the kingdom of God. How people can enter in the kingdom of God. What attitude is needed. Noticed the parables start in Parable of the sower which is found in Matthew 13. Wherein Jesus talk about 4 kinds of Christians and he uses the illustration of seeds. The context of that parable talk about what attitude should Christian have in order to enter in the kingdom of God.

Yes, is it not the case that the kingdom of heaven is not the same as heaven, for several things are said about the kingdom of heaven that would not be true of heaven? For example, there is violence in the kingdom of heaven, e.g., *From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force *(Matthew 11:12). But violence is not said to be suffered in heaven from the days of John the Baptist until any future time.

The sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25 would indeed seem to occur in the context of the kingdom of heaven, not heaven. The kingdom seems to refer specifically to what Jesus came to establish (i.e., the gospel kingdom) and that could not be fully established until the persecuting Jews were weakened by the destruction of Jerusalem. The sheep are the wise and faithful, and the goats are the foolish and unfaithful. The sheep would inherit the gospel kingdom, while the goats would suffer the fate that was to come upon the nation of Israel.

Great point Paidion:

I guess I should expand on what I’m trying to wrestle with in all this…

I think there is general agreement that UR is not explicitly the point of any parable Jesus told, nor do most (any?) of us use them in our defense of UR. At the same time however, when defending UR to those who believe it to be false, they very often point to Jesus parables!

For examples, Sheep and Goats; Wheat and Tares; Wise & Foolish Virgins; Rich Man & Lazarus; Tree and it’s Fruit; Parable of the Sower; The Barren Fig Tree; The Marriage Feast; and others…

They say things like this:

So I’m often not sure how to respond.

On the other side of the coin, if we look at aspects of the parables that might be construed as consistent with UR, I could say the same thing back to them! So for example what we can learn from the Luke 15 parables is that God is patient; that God is persistent; that God is initiator of our salvation… All those aspects seem very necessary if we are all saved, though they might not be fully adequate by themselves.

I’m just thinking that there’s got to be a better way to use the parables to the advantage of UR.

Still wondering

Bobx3