Born Again, I’d be interested in getting your thoughts on this quote from a previous post:
Fire & brimstone.
The atonement was sufficient for all men. Salvation is not by works…by grace through your faith.( eph 2:8-9) (Galatians 3:26) By exercising you free will to believe in Jesus is not a work. God made a way for man to be redeemed through His Son Jesus. God has done his part by providing equal opportunity to be saved. Man has to receive this free gift of salvation by faith. ( John 1:12-13) 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: It is by your faith you are in Christ and a child of God. (Galatians 3:26)
For by grace are ye saved through faith - and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest any man should boast.
All who are resurrected will be “in Christ” by virtue of their being raised by him: “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor 15:22). Paul doesn’t say, “…so all who are in Christ shall be made alive.” He says, “…so in Christ shall all be made alive.” See the difference, BA? Though during this lifetime only few are granted the faith to believe on Christ and be reconciled to God during the age of the Messianic reign, ultimately all will be reconciled to God when Christ returns to subject all people to himself (1 Cor 15:28; Col 1:20).
Christ himself taught that all who will be raised from the dead will be children of God. In Luke 20:34-36, Christ declares:
“The children of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels ***and are children of God, being children of the resurrection.***”
Here we find that those who are “considered worthy” (kataxioo) to attain to the age of which Christ is speaking (i.e., the time period that begins when the dead are raised) can no longer die, for they are made “equal to the angels” (or “equal to angels in heaven,” as we read in Matthew and Mark’s accounts). But then Christ adds something not found in Matthew and Mark’s accounts: those who are to become “equal to angels” by being raised from the dead will also become “children of God, being children of the resurrection.” Thus we see that all who take part in the resurrection of the dead will become “children of God” by virtue of their having been thus raised; consequently, our becoming “children of God” by being raised from the dead excludes all conditions that we can meet in this lifetime. But who are those that Christ says will be “considered worthy” to attain to an immortal existence that is “equal to the angels?” Is it some of the dead, or all of the dead?
To answer this question, let us first take notice of the fact that Luke is the only synoptic writer to include this expression in his account of Christ’s dialogue with the Sadducees; it is not found in either Matthew or Mark. However, it is my view that the Synoptics do not contradict each other, but are harmonious accounts. And it is unlikely that Luke is revealing anything new in his account that isn’t being taught explicitly or implicitly in Matthew or Mark. But there is no indication in either Matthew or Mark that Christ understood the resurrection to be anything less than universal. And we know that the apostle Paul understood the resurrection to be universal: it embraces all who die in Adam, both “the just and the unjust” (1 Corinthians 15:21-22; Acts 24:15). How then are we to understand Christ’s words in Luke?
Notice that in Luke’s account, Christ has two categories of people in view: the “children of this age,” and “those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead.” But who are “the children of this age?” Answer: In this context, it is evident that the “children of this age” consist of those who “marry and are given into marriage.” Christ is simply describing the living men and women of this present existence (i.e., prior to the resurrection of the dead). It is this category of people whom Christ is contrasting with “those considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead.” Therefore, it is this group (i.e., living men and women) who are not “considered worthy” to attain to the resurrection of the dead. But why is this so? Answer: simply because they’re not dead yet, and one must be dead in order to take part in the resurrection of the dead.
Thus, we see that the only contrast Christ is making here is between those who are alive, and those who are dead. One’s faith or spiritual/moral character before death has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one is “considered worthy” to be raised from the dead (again, Paul said both the just and the unjust will be raised; it is an unconditional blessing). Those who are “considered worthy” of the resurrection of the dead are simply those who are dead (since those who are still alive have no need of a resurrection; and all who will be found alive at the time of the resurrection of the dead will simply be “changed,” as Paul says in 1 Cor 15:51-52). But why does Christ describe the dead as being “worthy” of being raised? The word translated “considered worthy” (kataxioo) refers to the estimation in which one is held by another (in this case, by Jesus Christ), and need not carry the idea of virtue, merit or moral excellence. There is no reason to think that anyone’s being “considered worthy” to be raised from the dead has anything to do with something they did or didn’t do before they died. But in what sense does Christ consider the dead “worthy” of attaining to the resurrection of the dead? Answer: It is not due to their faith or virtue, but due to the simple fact that they are human beings who bear the image and likeness of God. They are also claimed by Christ as his rightful inheritance (Psalm 2:8; John 3:35; 13:3; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; Heb 1:2), since he is Lord of all, both the dead and the living (Rom 14:9).
Thus, Christ taught that all who die will be “considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection of the dead,” and will thus become “children of God, being children of the resurrection.”
Aaron.
Children of the resurrection? Well, there are two different resurrections. One for the righteous, One for the wicked. (Dan 12:2) One for the righteous happens before the tribulation. The one for the wicked happens after the millennium reign of Christ …they are resurrected to be judged at the Great White Throne to be cast into the lake of fire. ( Rev 20:11-15).
Click here to see why Daniel 12:2 isn’t describing a future, literal resurrection: Daniel 12:2
Click here to see why those who were judged at the “Great White Throne” weren’t resurrected: The Hell on Earth View - a subset of UR
Aaron.
I believe Daniel is describing the future resurrections of the righteous and the wicked.
The children of the resurrection??? Where did Jesus or any of the bible writers use that??? 
Anytime your ready to show me scriptures where Jesus taught universalism and show me chapter and verse of unbelievers coming to faith after they die in their sins. That would be awesome. Ready when you are.
Well, it’s more than ‘represented’, Adam was human. The same goes for Christ - the first resurrected human. It’s not about types and ‘representations’, it’s about being itself.
Ontology asks the question: ‘Why this and not nothing?’
Death, until Christ, was the definition of nothing. Even, by your gospel, bad people can ask that question. You may wish for annihilation of ‘your enemies’ but it will not be given. Forgive them as you have been forgiven. Come to wisdom.
Hey Ranran.
Jesus was 100% human and 100% God. To be in Christ comes by your faith in Him. Galatians 3:26, Romans 1:16, Romans 3:22 and on and on throughout the New Testament.
Amen! You’re not that far off from discovering why we are all in Him as we were in Adam - another 100% human. Go the next step and let Him be the Hero of all mankind. The Christ, the Savior of the World! Forgive them all, forgive the unbelievers, the sinners, the worst, like Paul, forgive them all - and then tell us you understand the Gospel and are like Christ in the extent and capacity of your forgiveness.
Ranran.
Lol. Ok. Jesus took the sins of humanity on himself to set us free from sin and death. Now, just because Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected does not mean that every human being is in Christ. If that were true ranran then we would not have to come to faith in Jesus like the whole New Testament teaches. But reality is that man must be justified by their faith in Jesus Christ. ( Romans 3:22)
The evidence of such faith is confession of Christ as Lord. All men will do that. Faith is sight. Be thankful for what sight had been granted you - but don’t begrudge the rest of humanity for their confession. Rejoice in so great a salvation! Forgive as you have been forgiven, sinner. Religious hypocrites are at the end of the parade - picking up horse doo-doo. The lame shall enter first.
Ranran.
All men will not do that. All men have an opportunity to do that. Man has a choice to make while they are on this earth. Receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior or Reject Him and pay the penalty of their sins and be separated from God for eternity.
BTW, ranran, I’m no longer a sinner. I was a sinner. I’m a New creation in Jesus Christ. I’m a born again child of the most High God. I"m the righteousness of God in Christ.
All men will confess Christ. You can deny it - but it’s irrevocable. You have to deal with it for your argument to be complete and coherent. So you can say any number of things to explain it - but you cannot refute it. No one can.
I find it interesting how much of the scripture the ECT position has to ignore. It literally flies in the face of many individual passages, as well as the overall testimony of scripture.
Indeed, Scripture is full of references.
Jesus said:
Luke 13:35
Look, your house is left to you desolate (the judgment of Gehenna). I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "
John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (“helkuo” in a future tense, to literally to draw, drag off forcefully) all men to myself."
Isaiah said:
Isaiah 45:21-24
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD ? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear allegiance.
They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.’ " All who have raged against him will come to him and be ashamed (for their rebellion).
Paul says:
Romans 14:11 **
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God**."
Philippians 2:10
"That at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Peter says:
Acts 2:21
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Acts 10:36
"The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ, He is Lord of all men!
Paul says:
Romans 10:13
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Some people have erroneously used Matthew 7:22, where Jesus told those who did miracles in His Name, that He never knew them and cast them away from His presence as the counter to this mind set. However, doing miracles in His Name when He did not know you, is different calling upon Him for Salvation when they are sent away…
How about this? Whenever Jesus or the New Testament talks about destruction or hell, we remember that it might not be literal or it might not be referring to final states. And whenever we see reference to “all in all” or something similar, we remember that this too might not be literal or might no refer to final states. Let’s abandon rigorous hermeneutics entirely!
This way we can all create our own cute little individual systems and all agree to disagree. We will then have no need to talk to one another - no more reasoning together. Sectarian isolation will become the rule and unity will become obsolete, but you never know - all Jesus’ harping on unity might have been figurative.
Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ "But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ "Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ "But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Weeping, gnashing teeth, seeing Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets, people from all the world flowing together to a feast… nope nothing about this indicates that Jesus is speaking about the afterlife. Or at least it is possible to explain away all such indications.
I don’t have it all figured out. But what gets me is that people with different claims to defend who are going to do their best to make the Bible say what they want will go to the trouble of communicating. People go into a discussion for the purpose of talking past one another. Verbal masturbation.
Maybe go into a discussion hoping to find something new, hoping to have your preconceptions dashed…
I will say this, as an agnostic on the matter of universalism: nobody answered the challenges of the specific scripture that BA asked about. Y’all dodged it and went elsewhere. I think that one person offered a solution- that it refers to this life. The rest of you dodged it. Correct me if I’m off here.
This is several discussions split over about 5 different threads. So whatever you are reading, you are reading from limited perspective. Loaded questions and making comments on things that are not discussed here here from in the beginning, made it really impossible to answer BA in this thread.
Without his hat on, does anyone else think Craig looks like Howie Mandel?