The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Jesus Said You Must Be Alive To Receive Eternal Life!

Col 1:26 ages past plural. In greek its genetive masculine plural

Moses isn’t good enough for you?, Well I’ve quoted Paul, Oh I know thats not good enough either, now Jesus is only good enough right?

Spiritual and physical death being destroyed is not contingent upon unbelievers continuing living in them. It is contingent upon the completed work of the cross and people receiving it in this life. This age of the already not-yet is coming to an end, Snitz. Hint: (the consummation of this “present evil age” when Jesus comes back) Paul M eloquently puts it this way:

"The already–not yet hermeneutic works when we’re in the already–not yet age, but it was seen to be required to be employed in the age of the not yet, i.e., the age of consummation, where the already–not yet tension is done away with. The already–not yet tension doesn’t apply to the age of consummation, and to hold a doctrine which seems to demand that it does, seems ad hoc. Similar issues arise with 1 Corinthians 15. We note in this passage that Christ’s second advent is referred to. Until Christ comes again, we are in the intermediate rule, the already–not yet. Christ’s life, death, resurrection, final judgment, are all one event, spread out over time. Since Christ has been raised from the dead, history is in an important sense over. All that remains is an epilogue before the final chapter is read. At Christ’s return, the kingdom will be consummated, and the already–not yet done away with".

Don’t you see, Snitz, your UR position requires there to be an already–not yet in the age of what is now the not yet! Which is totally foreign to scripture! :wink:

Question: if you believe the not-yet(reconciliation) continues into the age to come ( which would come at a high hermeneutical and exegetical price) why is the not-yet(reconciliation) not continued in this age? I’m sure there are people in hell right now and some who have been there for thousands of years would like this not-yet(reconciliation) to be extended to them. Why is God waiting for them to be resurrected unto judgment and not find them recorded in the BOL and throw them into the LOF? Why bother to do all that when He can extend the not-yet(reconciliation) in this age so the people in hell can be found recorded in the BOL?

The problem is you believe that there are people in hell right now. And YOUR version of hell at that. Both of which i don’'t believe are scriptural.

The problem is you don’t believe unbelievers are in hell right now. Where are they, Caroleem?

Dead.
Until the resurrection.

When we die, we dont go either to heaven or hell immediately. We are dead. No consciousness until Christ raises us. There is a lot of debate on this, even at this forum. I am leaning more towards this direction now. I used to think we float around in our bodies in either heaven or “hell”, but scripture says the dead know nothing. They are in Sheol, Hades, the grave. The unseen, the abode of the dead. They’re out of commission. God gave man the breath of life, then man became a living soul. When man dies, the breath of life goes back to God. He will once again give the breath of life at the resurrection.

Psalm 139:8: “If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.” :wink:

Some verses suggest one view of what happens when we die, and some verses suggest the other view. I am still not 100% on which view is the one. :confused:

Caroleem

All due respect, you really don’t know what you believe. Seems like you are chasing any doctrine that gives you a sense of a religious pleasure. :confused:

I am searching for the truth. GOD’S truth.

Also, no matter what i say or anyone else here says for that matter, if it is not the same as you believe, then we are all being deceived and are blinded. According to you, you KNOW the truth and we are all wrong. Your job is to to set us straight because we are all deceived. You have no interest in anything we have to say because you already have the mindset that we are all wrong. You have no interest in reading any links, you never respond or comment on them. I can pretty much guess you don’t even give them a try and ignore them all, because hey, you KNOW the truth and anything we have to say or suggest is wrong. I am also pretty sure we have not made any kind of dent in your beliefs, and i am pretty sure that you have not made any kind of dent in our beliefs. We are all just going back and forth and around in circles. It is pretty fruitless if you ask me. :confused:

Sorry if I offended you, but it seems you are all over the place to what you believe. You will find God’s truth in Luke 16:19-31. This is his truth where you go when you die. Start here and build from there. God bless.

That is a parable.

Haven’t we been down this road before? Perhaps its just Déjà vu…but i could have sworn. :laughing:

Ok, its a parable or story that teaches a spiritual truth as did all of Jesus’ parables. Also you are free to believe anything you want but my view on Luke 16:19-31 has been the orthodox view of the church for over 2000 years. :wink:

Quite so, and here’s the context.

We begin in Luke 13:22 with Jesus making his way to Jerusalem. People ask, “Will many be saved?” Jesus replies that the Gentiles, not Israel, will be saved. “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” At this, Jesus laments over Jerusalem.

Then in Ch 14, we have Jesus telling a Pharisee that those who think themselves most important (Israel) will be replaced by the least important (the Gentiles). Israel had a feast, but failed to invite the lame, blind and crippled Gentiles. In v 15, the King’s friends (Israel) do not come to his feast, so instead he invites the beggars off the streets (the Gentiles). In v 34, salt (Israel) is good, but if it loses its saltiness, it will be thrown out.

Ch15. The lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost son all refer to Israel and the Gentiles. “I have sheep not of this fold.” The prodigal son is the Gentiles. The older brother is Israel.

Ch 16: Israel has failed as God’s manager. Jesus advises them to be shrewd, to make their peace with the Gentiles while there is still time. V 10, Jesus calls Israel to be faithful, to serve God not money. V16, everyone, even the Gentiles, are forcing their way into the Kingdom. V18, Israel has divorced God and is committing adultery.

Then v19, the Rich Man and Lazarus. The rich man is Israel. Lazarus is the Gentiles. (Eleazar was Abraham’s faithful Gentile steward). The meaning of the parable? Israel is out, the Gentiles are in.

Ch 17, Israel has caused people to stumble. God rebukes them. He will forgive them seven times in a day. Therefore repent! v 7 Do your duty, Israel, like a faithful servant!

And finally, the healing of the 10 lepers. The one who came back to offer thanks was a Gentile.

(I’ve posted this before. Forgive the re-run, but it seemed relevant.)

Very good sir, very good

Redhot and Allan

You are also free to believe what you want, but my view has been the orthodox view of the church for over 2000 years since Jesus taught it. God bless.

Caroleem

Also nobody should want to be right; we should all just want to be doctrinally correct, right? :wink:

Ditto. :slight_smile:

Right. :wink:

Revival,

You are also free to believe what you want, but my view has been the orthodox view of the church for over 2000 years since Jesus taught it. God bless.

This sounds a lot like, “My mind is made up; don’t confuse me with Scripture!”

At any rate, Jesus didn’t teach anything like you’re advocating, and for several centuries, quite a good portion of the orthodox church didn’t, either.

Tell me, Revival, do you want what you believe to be true? Do you think God wants it to be true?

Sarcasm doesn’t change what has been established in Luke 16:19-31. Are you denying there are people in hell, Snitz, according to Luke 16:19-31? Because that certainly won’t be the orthodox position or the “Evangelical Universalist” position.

on the contrary. those people that died are in Sheol, the grave. David, inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote “who praises you from his grave?”
Solomon, similarly inspired, said that the plans of man die with them in the grave…ergo no conscious thought (Ecc 9:10)
they are not in “hell”

hell is not uniformly believed in, even by non Universalists. eternal hell is certanily a non-Biblical concept. we have the grave in the old testament and no hint that there is any life in that state. God must resurrect someone in order for them to be judged, as you’ve posted before yourself. after that judgement, the only thing that could be a possibility if not a refining, and a testing of works for each person, is annihilation.
nobody thrown into a lake of fire, if that fire was a final judgement, would survive.

this idea you have about the soul being immortal, as has been explained to you numerous times, is extra-Biblical and thus incorrect. orthodox for the last 2000 years or not, it’s wrong. the church wrongly idolised Greek philosophy and paganism, and incorporated that thought as a hermeneutic when interpreting Scripture.

was Martin Luther wrong to go against the “Orthodox” view of the Catholic church of his time? was Jesus wrong to go against the “Orthodox” teaching of the Jews?

if an orthodox teaching is incorrect, we must stand against it. that is all.

Appeal to tradition now? I thought you based all yor views off of the bible. Allan presented the actual context of the parable and you answer with an appeal to tradition. Jesus taught a parable which you and orthodoxy has gotten wrong imo. You know for a long time orthodoxy was salvation by works until a guy named luther came along. Maybe just maybe the orthodox position is wrong? And again I ask who decides orthodoxy? Orthodoxy is a man made tradition.

not just your opinion mate, imo too
this is what Jesus taught