The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Job 35:5-8

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Look up at the heavens and see;
gaze at the clouds so high above you.
If you sin, how does that affect him?
If your sins are many, what does that do to him?
If you are righteous, what do you give to him,
or what does he receive from your hand?
Your wickedness only affects humans like yourself,
and your righteousness only other people.

This seems to contradict the popular idea that all sin is directed toward God, how can this be? I would love your thoughts on these verses :slight_smile:

P.S. I know that Job is a tricky book since we can not take anything that Job and his three friends say, as true (Job 42:3,7). However Elihu, the young one who speaks up from 34-37, was never reproved and I take it to mean that what he said was correct.

P.P.S. I just noticed that Elihu spoke for three chapters, God spoke for three as well, while Job and his 3 friends spoke for 31! Just shows how the wisdom of man, long-winded and confusing, cannot compare to the wisdom of God which is short and simple.

#2

We already know that Job was the most righteous man in the land, yet listen to what Elihu says…
Job 34:1-8
1 And Elihu answereth and saith: … Who [is] a man like Job? He drinketh scoffing like water, 8 And he hath travelled for company With workers of iniquity, So as to go with men of wickedness.
Elihu continues…
Job 34:12
12 Yea, truly, God doth not do wickedly, And the Mighty doth not pervert judgment.
Job 34:35 - 37
Again Elihu goes on…
35 Job–not with knowledge doth he speak, And his words [are] not with wisdom. 36 My Father! let Job be tried–unto victory, Because of answers for men of iniquity, 37 For he doth add to his sin, Transgression among us he vomiteth, And multiplieth his sayings to God.

Job 35:1
1 And Elihu answereth and saith:–…
Here he quotes Job - but only v. 2&3 are what Job said.
From v. 4 on it’s Elihu speaking again.

We are beginning to see that he isn’t saying what is right by Job or God. Which he is rebuked for shortly. So in essence the vs. You are questioning are coming from Elihu’s skewed perspective.

Elihu afterwords says…
Job 36:4
4 For, truly, my words [are] not false, The perfect in knowledge [is] with thee. 5Lo God…
Job 36:6-7
6 He reviveth not the wicked, And the judgment of the poor appointeth; 7 He withdraweth not from the righteous His eyes, And [from] kings on the throne, And causeth them to sit for ever, and they are high,

Which is saying that nothing bad happens to the righteous. We know this isn’t true, and Then God responds…
Job 38:1-2
1 And Jehovah answereth Job out of the whirlwind, and saith:–2 Who [is] this–darkening counsel, By words without knowledge?
Speaking of Elihu.

It would seem that Elihu wasn’t one of Jobs friends and was just “along for the ride” that day because he excludes himself from them in 35:4
He is rebuked for his words by God himself in 38:2 but not instructed to offer a sacrifice (not sure why)

#3

I would disagree with you only because I believe Job 38: 2 is speaking to Job and not Elihu.

38:2-3, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you(Job), and you make it known to me.”

Job quotes the Lord’s first words at the beginning of chapter 42, “'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.(v3)”

Elihu spoke truly of Job, he was a man who kept company with the wicked (difference from being a wicked man), he spoke wrongly of God, that is why God blatantly says that Job is uttering worthless words.

If God had disliked what Elihu said I would think he would have included him in 42:7

“After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

If Elihu was speaking the truth then these 3 chapters are some of the most interesting I have ever found on the nature of how things work.

Anyways just my opinion, no better than your but we both have one =)

#4

There are some problems with accepting Elihu as original to the work.

1.) He is utterly ignored by everyone.

2.) He shows up only to summarize and restate the arguments of the three companions. He doesn’t add or develop anything substantially. (On the other hand, I grant that the author might have thought he should use Elihu as a literary technique, as it would be out of character, and also out of step with the structure of the poem up to this point, for one of the three friends to give a summary position. On the other, other hand, the poetic structure up to that point is such that no summary is really needed either: each friend advances their case a little at a time with replies from Job, so by the time of the last exchange we already have what amounts to a developed summary position. There is less than no need for Elihu, who only delays the climactic scene of YHWH’s appearance for no substantial gain.)

3.) I have heard that the actual language used in these chapters is as different from the rest of the work as Shakespearean English is different from Chaucer. (If anyone has read Chaucer in the original, that’s pretty freaking different!)

Whatever the historical core of Job may be, and/or however much the whole work should be regarded as an extended (though inspired) parable, I find it safer to ignore Elihu as much as everyone else in the story does. :wink:

(Having said that, I should also mention that the most structurally insightful reverent commentary on Job I’ve ever read, Kissane’s The Book of Job, is aware of the problems with Elihu–although he disagrees that the underlying language is that different–and still argues on technical grounds that the material is original instead of a huge interpolation. While I disagree with him on a few points, I cannot strongly enough recommend his work for thematic, narrative and other technical analysis of Job. The inexpensive good hardback copies can be found at the Amazon link above, but there aren’t many!)

#5

For a brilliant commentary on Job, let me also recommend Robert Sutherland’s Putting God on Trial

bookofjob.org/

#6

Interesting thread … Job was one of the books that fascinated me as a child and teen and I reread numerous times, but it’s been a long time since I read it last. I always saw Elihu as the one who spoke rightly. When I was in college, I heard a respected pastor teach that Elihu spoke so poorly that everyone ignored him, which really surprised me at the time, but I didn’t know enough then to judge. I’ll have read it again and see what I think now that I’m a bit older and have enough confidence to have some opinions of my own… :sunglasses:

Sonia