The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Joe: Jesus can be the Saviour of all, without saving all

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

From memory, here is roughly one of Joe’s points from coffee last Friday:

i.e. “Saviour” is just another title that Jesus has, like “King”, “Judge”, etc. regardless of what He does.

Now personally, I do think that he judges everyone, just that some will call upon Christ to the be their representative, whilst others won’t, and that will make a difference to the short/medium term outcome. Secondly, I think it’s strange to be given the title of Saviour, if you don’t actually save everyone who you could (& I’d argue want to).

#2

Of course he judges all people. He’s the King. Some will be judged and rewarded. Some will be judged and punished.

It’s funny how the word “judgment” automatically has a negative connotation. It’s because we suspect God is itching to hurt us, not longing to bless us.

#3

I also think when God gets given a title that starts with a capital letter, it means He fulfills the role perfectly. Some examples:

  • when we call Him Father, we mean the perfect father
  • when we call Him King, we mean the perfect king
  • when we call Him Judge, we mean the perfect judge
  • when we call Him Creator, we mean the perfect creator
  • when we call Him Saviour, we mean the perfect saviour

A perfect savior would save everyone one.

#4

The life-guard who saves 99 out of 100 people drowning is not the savior of all. And if Arminian theology is correct, Jesus is not really the savior of anyone; rather, He only makes salvation available to all - we must choose salvation of our own accord. And of course, if Calvinism is correct, Jesus saves some, but leaves other unsaved.

#5

The Calvinist God not only saves a few (when he could save us all), he then demands we praise him for being all-merciful! And lots of people seem to manage.

It’s quite extraordinary, the mental gymnastics we put ourselves through. It’s psychologically impossible to ascribe worth to a God I actually judge to be unworthy, but if I hold my breath and really try…

#6

Alex, you lost me at all won’t be judged. :smiley: They won’t? Seems like you guys feel about like I do that we will be judged. I figure we are all going to die and face the judgement. It’s curious to me that a lot of Christians don’t feel like they’ll be judged. I guess God is going to overlook whatever they do because the blood is covering them and they believe in the right belief system, as if that is what matters to God?

Reminds me of Hebrews 10:26 that if we deliberately keep on sinning no sacrifice for sins is left. We’ve been studying in our sunday school class how in the old testament they’d do their sacrifices and think that is what mattered to God, the blood. He set up the system, after all. But, what God really wanted was their heart and there was no substitute for that.The sacrifices were meant to have an effect on their inside. Jesus died that we might die to our sin, his love would be written on our hearts, not so that we would not be judged or so I’m starting to think. What we do, as I read more and more of the bible, is extremely important to God and I’m betting my petunias that he’s watching and judging.

#7

All are and will be judged:
Hbr 10:30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

And of course the verse they like to pull out against universalists:
Hbr 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Peter says:
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

But that idea comes, I think, from where Jesus says, (Jhn 5:24) “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

So the question to ask is: What does Jesus mean by this statement? I’ve gotta run, but I hope I can get back to this. I’d like to delve into it more!

Sonia

#8

I’m thinking to have life, even eternal life, and pass out of death is to walk like Jesus did and die to self. When we believe God we follow Him, become alive, and do not stand in danger of judgement. We possess eternal life as we follow God. To hear his word is to obey it. If we are found to be in Christ, obeying Him, then we won’t be in a position to need the consquences of judgement, that are for correction.

I’m still working through a lot, but I’m noticing as I’m reading the bible that God cares about our actions and will not look over bad ones as we are given a free pass that others are not because we professed to believe in the right system. I don’t know if I’m saying this well, probably not. It’s something I’m working through. I know this could tend to sound like a works based system and I definitely don’t think we earn our salvation, especially since it’s God who works in us.

#9

Good question! It’s hard to work out how that one fits into the other ones.

Same here :slight_smile:

#10

I think you said it pretty well! :slight_smile:

#11

It’s so nice to have company along the way of our discovery! You all are like kindred spirits. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m glad it made some sense. So much of my thinking has radicly changed on these issues, like one domino falling after another. I would not have made these discoveries if it weren’t for my dad. Now, however, as I read alone, I can’t help but see everywhere that God has grace toward us, doesn’t have us earn our salvation, but is expecting inward change. I’m not sure it has anything to do with evangelical universalism, but Talbott certainly opened the flood gate for understanding what love is and how it is that these two may exist together. Thankgoodness, for that!

#12

There’s a wonderful bit in Ps 139. The writer has just declared how much he hates the wicked and prays that God will kill them all. Then he says, “Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.”

This ferocious man earnestly desires God’s judgment. “Search me. Test me. Know my thoughts.” Why? Because he trusts God and loves God and wants to please him. He wants to be with God forever.

How can a doctor cure me without first making a diagnosis? How can God lead me in the way everlasting if he doesn’t know where I am now?

#13

Mainly for my reference in the future when I have to try to show that “Judge of all” means “judging all”, so that “Saviour of all” means “saving all”.

Also I’ve just noticed the linked emphasis on judging with “righteousness, uprightness, equity, faithfulness” :sunglasses: