Piper seems to think that by filling our minds with blood, guts, and horrors that we will become desensitized to such things and become stronger Christians. As someone who has had psychotic breaks with reality, this is the exact opposite of what I should fill my mind with. I go crazy the longer I think and meditate on such things. I use to not be that way but nowadays I can only take so much of this kind of stuff. I’m more into the lovely and beautiful things. Moreover, the Bible says the exact opposite of what Piper says:
Very good point, Cole. We’re not only ALLOWED to think about the good things and refuse to dwell on the bad, we’re outright commanded to do so. Something I also need to remember. Thanks!
I think John Piper is basically saying that we shouldn’t be offended by the sovereignty of God. At least us UR’s know that God’s sovereignty is actually a good thing in the end.
I think that’s part of what he’s saying. But his main point is that we in the western world are being coddled and pampered because we have wimpy worldviews for they don’t include horrific blood and guts suffering under God’s mighty hand. This makes us wimps. I realize there’s suffering in the world but it’s not something I’m to dwell on. Nonetheless, I don’t believe God’s massive hand is on the horrific evil and blood and guts suffering in the world like Piper does. God doesn’t cause those things. It gives us an image of God that is insane when you say His massive hand is on all the evil and horrific blood and guts in the world. John Piper himself in a You Tube video says that these doctrines will drive you crazy. He thinks that if you start at the cross with Christ and work your way out from there you’ll be okay. Whatever. According to John Piper in this video these things have driven people mad:
From what John Piper says in the video, I don’t know how he’s not a universalist. He talks about how the only way to fully embrace the sovereignty of God is to focus on the cross and embrace the love of God personally. If God is sovereign over all. And if God is love over all. Then it only makes sense that God is Savior of all.
I guess it gets down to definitions again. What does he mean by “wimpy worldviews”? Is it scientific viewpoints on evolution, the age of the earth, etc? Is it different denominational viewpoints, along with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox viewpoints, on Scripture? Is it the contemporary and historical views of theologians and philosophers? Or do I need to read his writings, to see if he defines “wimpy worldviews”?
Piper is only a non-universalist through exegesis (which to be fair, is the only reason you should be a non-universalist).
I’m not entirely sure he’s worked out the logical ramifications of many of his statements/beliefs about God. For example he’s a very keen purveyor of the idea that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him. So following the Westminster Catechism (and following C.S. Lewis’ alteration of this particular part of it), Piper says that the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him. Yet on the other hand he’s quite happy to basically contradict that by holding the view that God also chooses to be glorified by making sure that some men will NEVER enjoy or be satisfied in Him.
So the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him… well, apart from those whom God has chosen never to be able to enjoy Him. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him… err, umm, apart from those who by God’s choice will never be satisfied in Him, though that in no way means that God is less glorified when people aren’t satisfied in Him… because you know, well… um, err Romans 9 and stuff.
I don’t know guys. But I’ve decided to reject the strong sovereignty views of Calvinism and others. Watching this video brought back scary memories for me. I’m going to the Freewill theism of John Sanders and Greg Boyd. In his book, “The God Who Risks” John Sanders says this:
Yes, it would be senseless for God to say “Choose this day…” but for us to not really be able to choose. God is sovereign in that He gives us the choice. We have no choice except He give it to us.
I guess it’s all part of the personality of different Christians. To me, the sovereignty of God is vastly reassuring. Under the Arminian belief I was under before, I never quite knew if I was saved even if I seemed to express the fruits of the spirit. I was afraid that if I believed I was assured my salvation due to my expression of the fruits then I was being arrogant. Therefore, I never could really know if I was saved.
Now, I know for a fact that I’m saved. It has to do with a relationship with God garnered by the circumcision of my heart by the Holy Spirit. What the Holy Spirit starts can’t be ended unless I decided to be a totally 100% different being without having any of God at all. In that sense, I believe most of Calvinist doctrine but also accept Arminian concept of God=Love and also full atonement.
Interestingly, I became UR because of John Piper’s sort of theology. It was extremely obvious that if God causes all evil then He is responsible for fixing everything. Overall, I felt more reassured than ever about my salvation.
I guess it really doesn’t matter whether you are Arm or Calv. If you think about it, XYZ people will be in heaven. Regardless of whether they came their by their free-will or pre-destination, they are there. For me, to resolve both I simply say that God has 2 wills, His plan and His desire. All things work out in the end but especially for those that are rock-solid in the faith.
God bless!
It probably doesn’t effect you because you don’t ponder it or believe it strongly enough. I’m also a sensitive person. I can remember having a strong belief that God is in complete control over everything running through my head and seeing a picture of two men holding a lady over a fire roasting her to death while she was still alive. It completely terrified me.
Well, your worldview leads to these things Nick. If God is in complete control then it makes Him look completely insane if His massive hand is on all the evil and horrors of the world like Piper says. This is why I’m getting out of it. It’s dangerous and abusive to people like me.
People around here worship John Piper. Of course, I do live in Minnesota and his church is only 10 minutes away… Although he did step down as head pastor and appointed his pupil. I pretty much ignore most of what he says.
I’ve been thinking about what I said about how I was going to reject God’s control over everything because of what John Piper said about how this view has driven people mad as they contemplated it. I agree 1000% with John Piper on this because I have gone mad while contemplating it. But as I thought about this I have to say that when my faith is in God and I’m not contemplating these things I’m okay. Trusting in a morally pure God who loves me and is in control brings me comfort. I just can’t focus and dwell on all the horrific evil and suffering in the world all the time. For me, I need to meditate and fill my mind with lovely and beautiful things. I realize that there is suffering in the world but dwelling on such things makes me go mad just as Piper says. God’s sovereign will is His business alone. My job is to trust Him, clean house and help others the best I can. Many times I’ve struggled with the problem of evil and suffering and I see no way out of it unless God reconciles ALL. Not only do I have hope for myself but hope for loved ones and others who have died not trusting in Christ.
To my knowledge, no where does scripture say that we should meditate upon the sovereignty of God. Rather it says that we should think on that which is good, pure, and lovely. And of course, Paul prays that we’ll be filled with the knowledge of the love of God! If we trust in the Love of God then we are thankful for His sovereignty. But if we focus on the sovereignty of God and do not acknowledge his love for all, then, well that could drive one mad, I think.
Thanks!
