The Evangelical Universalist Forum

John Stott: uh, dude, the salt's over there... {g}

Practices Christian Living
#1

John Stott is a fairly famous evangelical exegetical commentator (i.e. he writes books trying to get at the meaning or meanings of scripture through studying the scriptures), who is also an annihilationist.

Recently, I discovered this quote tagged to an email:

"We should not ask, ‘What is wrong with the world?’ for that diagnosis has already been given. Rather, we should ask, “What has happened to the salt and light?” – John R. W. Stott

I am not entirely sure that this is the same John Stott (although I suspect it is, as it comes from someone who used to work for someone who was astounded and impressed to learn that Stott, a favorite commenter of his, was an annihilationist instead of ECT.)

But if it is, my reply would be something like this:

“You threw out the salt when you denied that we all shall be salted with the fire of Gehenna, a salting that is the best of things and which leads to peace with one another. No fire == no Holy Spirit == no salt and no light. When the salt becomes unsalty, then with what did you think you would salt it?! It only is fit to be thrown outside, to be trampled underfoot by men.”

Or, less snarkily perhaps :wink: : does anyone here have access to what John Stott says (if anything) about Mk 9:49-50?

#2

Jason, I don’t recall reading any Bible scholar or Church Father describing your view of Mark 9:49-50. And I don’t see how this helps with any debate about the duration and/or effects of punishments in hell.

And please don’t respond until you’re caught up with your schedule for your epic. LOL:)

#3

No, it’s pretty rare for me to see anyone talking about it, too.

I was very pleased to see that “Gregory” gives the idea a paragraph of consideration in his book, however. (Page 150 of the Cascade Books edition. You should also be able to find it from a search for “Mark 9:” using Amazon’s Search Inside the Book Feature.) Gregory comes down tentatively in favor of it as a possibility, but doesn’t want to lay any weight on it. I’m rather more gung-ho about it. :mrgreen:

(I seem to recall running across someone else mentioning it, too, in a text I’ve read in the past few months. I don’t recall who, if so, however… sigh.)

Well, if Jesus is explaining what the unquenchable “eonian fire” of Gehenna is actually acting to accomplish, that would seem to me to have some bearing on a debate about the duration and/or effects of Gehenna. :laughing:

But opinions may differ on that, I suppose. {shrug} :slight_smile:

And I’ve written pretty extensively about it already here on the forum, as well as elsewhere. But for this thread, I was wanting to find out if anyone knew what Stott had ever written about those final two verses in the chapter, if anything. And since Stott was the one who brought up the connection of the doctrine of “salt and light” to Christian living; and since Jesus’ whole point to talking about being salted with fire has to do with Christian living; the “Christian Living” subcategory seemed an appropriate place to broach the topic. :slight_smile:

Now back to work, after my fifteen minute break…

#4

I’ve read a lot of your stuff about it, but I had trouble understanding the purpose of it. Now I see that you belief that Mk 9:49-50 teaches that all are purged in hell, which implies the temporariness of hell.

I don’t agree, but at least I understand.: )

#5

I have posted this in another thread (which to be honest I’m too lazy to link to :wink: )

However, this implies that (post-mortem) at least some Christians are going to experience sone kind of fire just like the rest of us (it may not be the lake but surely all these fires are just the purity of God full-on). This passage also clearly states that some Christians will experience some kind of destruction (again just like the rest of us). Only the overcoming Christians aren’t hurt of the second death/lake of fire/burning up of wood hay and stubble.

To me it seems obvious that the process is exactly the same whether you submit to the fire in this life and overcome, or whether you build on the foundation but build in the wrong materials or you never believe and are burned/destroyed in the lake of fire - only the degree to which one is hurt/shocked/surprised by the process digffers (it’s just one of degree).

#6

Almost. I believe Mk 9:49-50 teaches that all are purged by the Holy Spirit (“our God is a consuming fire”, i.e. the only “fire eonian”), and that what is happening in Gehenna is the same action that everyone receives. Insofar as Gehenna (per se) is a condition of ‘punishment’, the ‘punishment’ will be as temporary as our insistence on holding to and fondling our sins. The fire will not be temporary, no moreso than God is temporary.

As charismatics like to say: “Acquire the Fire!” :smiley:

This verse is hugely important, insofar as (whatever it does actually mean) Jesus is teaching about 1.) the operation of the fire (“salting”); 2.) the extent of the fire (“everyone”); 3.) the quality of the fire (“eonian”); 4.) the goal of the fire (“to be at peace with one another”). It’s also important because in doing all this, Jesus is applying this teaching to a famous Isaianic passage, thus providing an explanation of what this passage really means.

Edited to add: right, Jeff! :smiley:

#7

Thanks Jason and by the way - great phrase below!