Then why-o-why are you not considering UR as, at least, a possibility??? Are you so locked-in by what is expected of your doctrine that the truth is not quite there? That’s not to pick on you - that’s probably true of all Christians. If one is not seeking the truth, does that make one the teacher of all? No, that puts one among the religious, the semi-dead, and often. the hypocrites.
So fellow seeker, respect us as we respect you. That would be the Christian way to do this. Agreed? Try to understand our view, as we try to understand yours. We are all trying to find ourselves pleasing to God - the motivation is the same - we are all believers here!
And you’ll notice he neglects to admit the unpleasantries coming at the universalists from the ET believers … I looked around those boards several years ago, and the situation between universalists and non-universalists was very bad. I didn’t stick around long, as it was impossible to have anything like a reasonable discussion. Many people are very threatened by the idea of UR–and I’m not exactly sure why that is–but it often manifests in savage attacks. Proponents of UR are treated as attacking Christianity itself–as traitors to Christ.
I would say his case against universalists is admissible only if other Chrisians are also judged by the same standard. There are gracious people on both sides of the doctrinal divide, and nasty ones as well. That’s why I frequently point out that the important thing is not necessarily the doctrine that a person professes, but their practice of walking in the Spirit and evincing the fruits of the Spirit. That is the evidence of a true disciple.
The person will not be forgiven. Why? To deny Jesus is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit which is committed by the person. This has been established in Luke 12:8-10.
Yep. Why wouldn’t I? I was reading the Bible well before then. If I’m old enough to read the tribulation in the scriptures, I’m old enough to read studies about the tribulation, too. (And old enough to tell when they’re making some sense, and when they’re kind of fudging some things. )
Good math, though!
I even have a couple of friends who have published some extensive work on the topic. Neither of them are universalists, one of them staunchly not so. You might consider the other guy too scholarly for your taste, but you’d probably like the staunch non-universalist anyway. His name is Daymond Duck, and he used to be one of the chief postmen in my little town. Hmm… this link might work for an Amazon listing…
He and I hugely disagree about various points, both expected (what’s happening at the end of RevJohn) and maybe unexpected (last time I checked, he seemed to think no one would be converted in the last seven years after the rapture. I may have misunderstood him, though.) But he works hard at it, and I don’t mind sending some potential income his way for the effort.
The other friend I’m thinking of hasn’t had his book in print for a while, which I think is a shame because he does a really good job covering historical contexts in a very sober and careful manner. I don’t know if it’s possible to buy his book anymore in a way that he’ll benefit from, but in the spirit of sending people along to friends of mine who aren’t universalists: there you go. (David isn’t remotely as set on the seven-last-year scheme as Daymond is, by the way, but he does respect it.)
I want to clarify that the Tribulation and the Eschaton (whether in RevJohn or not) is far from the only thing, much less the primary thing, I’ve been studying since I was 7 or 8 (or maybe 6 ). It is, to the best of my memory though, the first Biblical topic I ever worked at systematically studying (even though in a relatively truncated form at the time–late 70s, after all. )
Very Nice. Were basically the same age. I just turned 38 in April. Jason, have you received the baptism in the Holy Spirit? Do you regulary pray in tongues? The reason why I ask is because you are very talented and gifted and I believe you are just barely tapping into your gifts and talents the Lord has given you for the calling on your life. There is so much more the Lord wants to reveal to you through the HS and this can only be done by receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues regularly.
Btw, we have more doctrines in common than differences.
I’ve no idea whether Jason speaks in tongues or not but I do know that he has a far more important gift - love! Without it your baptism of the Holy Spirit, healing hands and speaking in tongues is just so much clatter of harsh cymbals.
Yes I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, in May of 1980; 40 days after which God gave me my first prophetic dream (though I didn’t realize it at the time) on Midsummer’s Night. I have had several others since then, particularly from around 2000 (although not any in a little while), but as they mostly involve someone else in a very private manner I am not at liberty (at this time) to discuss them without her consent. (One thing I can talk about is that God showed me where my brother and his wife would be temporarily moving to several months before it happened, namely Lexington, KY. A disembodied hand pointing at a map, even. Come to think of it, the contexts of the dream even hinted at it being a temporary move there… I hadn’t realized that before now, after years of occasionally recalling it.)
No, I do not regularly pray in tongues (or even at all, I would say); although I do have ecstatic prayer and worship (in which the revelation of universal reconciliation is given to me, if you must know, although self-critically speaking I would rather not appeal to that. After all, many people receive what are felt to be revelations that are different in doctrinal content than mine! I have enough discernment to know that there is a wide field for self-deception in such things, which is why I do not lay any public or even private stress on having such experiences as grounds for my beliefs.)
Not all people have the same gifts, including that of languages (whether speaking or interpretation), and some people do not have that gift at all (which St. Paul lists as the least of the spiritual gifts for some reason.) I refuse to look down on the gifts of people who do not have my gifts (such as they are), and I wish that people would not look down on me for not having their gifts. Paul talked about all this at length in 1 Cor 12. We are not all an eye or an ear or a foot, but we all have different gifts as the Spirit apportions them. I am not greedy: if God so chooses to give me the gifts of language or of healing or of miracles, then let it be so, or if not then not.
My first duty however is to be pursuing true love; only afterward and in that light should I be zealous for the spiritual gifts. God might still apportion them to me, of course, but if I am not first for love’s sake then sooner or later He will remove my lampstand and declare to me, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you doer of injustice!”
Those are threats from our Lord that I take extremely seriously against myself.
(I do not dare say I have attained what St. Paul calls that transcendence; but I appreciate Jeff testifying in my favor on that. )
Jason, when you receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit (I don’t mean into Christ for salvation, but unto power to be a witness) the evidence will be praying in tongues at some point in your life. The gifts of the Holy Spirit were created to assist the ministry gifts or callings listed in 1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11; Rom 12:6-8. True, we all don’t have the same ministry calling, but we all have access to all 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1Cor 12:8-10 when we receive the baptism in the HS.
You receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit the same way you received salvation, by faith. Jason, I beg you to read the book…Walk of the Spirit …Walk of Power daveroberson.org to understand the fullness of praying in tongues and the baptism in the HS. Please read all this book. The HS wants to reveal so much more to you by praying in tongues, Jason, than your receiving now through your praying with your understanding and through your studies.
That’s great if it works for you or others, Aaron, but it doesn’t necessarily for everyone. I can tell you personally that I had that belief force-fed to me my whole entire life and it never turned out to be truly edifying. It just elevated a mere gift to God’s status and distracted me from my true purpose of loving like in 1 Cor. 13. Did you know that other religions claim speaking in tongues, such as Hinduism? This is a gift from God, but not the do-all, heal-all gift which is actually Christ Jesus sent to us.
I do speak in tongues from time to time throughout the day, mostly to deliver myself from anxiousness; yet there is no biblical proof, much as Pentecostals would love for there to be, that speaking in tongues is a necessary sign of the infilling. It’s a quick and easy sign to many which could just as easily indicate the infilling of a devil (as per the Hindi practice). It’s much more difficult and requiring of context and discernment to judge based on love. Only a portion of the people who were filled with the Holy Spirit were said to ever exercise the gift, and the first person to ever be mentioned as filled was never reported to, either! In fact at most his gift was said to be artistic and decorative in nature. There are many spiritual gifts, much more than even the apostle Paul could think to list, but they all have the same exact unifying factor: when they are given by the Spirit, they are always characterized by divine holy love.
I’ve had other gifts, too, such as spiritual dreams. But I don’t think we keep the gifts trapped within ourselves like a tool we can operate at any time; rather the Spirit works them through us as he wills. Maybe someday we will have more control over them, when the Spirit of love and grace and truth has more control over us.
All due respect, you have no idea what your talking about. Praying in tongues does exactly that… edifies you (1 Cor 14:2;4) and builds you up on your most holy faith (Jude 20). I recommend you read the book, too, to learn the fullness of praying in tongues before making any more erroneous comments about something you don’t know much about.
I think you don’t know what you’re talking about, in regards to what I said. Did you see the part where I said I speak in tongues daily? Why would I do that if it’s not edifying?
What I was actually saying is that the belief that tongues is THE sign of being filled with the Spirit (instead of the increased practice of love) and that it’s the all-important gift was not edifying to me. I understand if you don’t understand, but please don’t accuse me of saying something I didn’t.
You know, Jesus never spoke in tongues. Do you know why the disciples could cast that demon out? Well, for one, they lacked faith, but Jesus said that this kind come not but by prayer and fasting. Do you know what prayer does? It humbles you before God so that you can be used of Him. You intercede for the person you are praying for to get you your mind off oneself, so that you can carry the bruden of others. Do you know what fasting does? From the example in Isaiah 58:
*"Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?" - Isaiah 58:3-7 *
It is a time to afflict our souls, that we might find compassion to those in need, the same kind of compassion Jesus demonstrated in perfect love when He healed people, cast out demon, and raised the dead. That’s how the Holy Spirit operates.
And you don’t need to speak in tongues to see the Spirit operate in love.
How do you know Jesus didn’t pray in tongues? No one said you needed the baptism to walk in love, but to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus and the Apostles walked in. Need it we do. Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and power when he was baptized by John and went into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. Notice when he came out of the wilderness he came out in the power of the Holy Spirit and started destoying the works of the devil by healings, miracles, etc. If Jesus needed to be anointed by the Holy Spirit with power, so do we. (Acts 10:38) Jesus and the Apostles are the pattern we follow. Please read the book, Dondi. Walk of the Spirit-Walk of Power daveroberson.org you can download it for free.
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His name is Daymond Duck, and he used to be one of the chief postmen in my little town. Hmm… 
). It is, to the best of my memory though, the first Biblical topic I ever worked at systematically studying (even though in a relatively truncated form at the time–late 70s, after all. 
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