As mentioned previously, I help facilitate a class for church study (like Sunday School) each month where I worship. There is a Quarterly topic, this one’s being “Glimpses of Our God”. And this study is on “Grace and Judgment”.
And a fount of ideas has emerged as I’ve studied: I’d love to know how all of you deal with these theologic realities…
(Sorry for the length; but it seems important to quote these texts rather than just list them… My comments are in parenthesis…)
To give a background of the theologic stream from which I’ve emerged, I’ll share these two links: both very typical of my denominations theology. Which is not really what I’d want to focus upon now, …but just for full disclosure and forthrightness…
ministrymagazine.org/archive/2010/february/the-judgment-an-adventist-perspective
wad-adventist.org/documents/sevenphase.pdf
So, jumping right in, I must note that upon my discovery of the truth of UR, and upon reading the absolute seriousness with which Talbott, and Perry (previously known as “MacDonald”) took the topic of “Judgment”, I knew this rendering had deep credibility. (And or course every Universalist on this site takes the Judgment very seriously as well!)
The topic then is “Grace and Judgment” – and I must admit that from all I’ve read on this, Grace/Judgment – as commonly thought of, appear to be in some sort of tension… ie if Grace is God forgiving/forgetting our sins, Judgment is God listing/accounting our sins, and then determining punishment.
Do these two ideas – GRACE and JUDGMENT – pull in opposite directions? ie Grace pulls towards Salvation, while Judgment pulls toward punishment??
– Grace often spoken of as “undeserved” – while
– Judgment often spoken of as “deserved”…
I wonder…
We often think in terms of “the Judgment” in terms of two major elements:
– a phase where guilt is established, facts are laid bare, truth is revealed (and by the way, isn’t it interesting that no where in biblical judgment talk do we find the idea of “innocent until proven guilty”! eg Joshua’s robes in Zech 3 are “dirty” – signifying his certain guilt…)
– and of course the sentencing phase wherein punishment is adjudicated… (What follows argues that it is this phase that is badly misunderstood by most Christians and has lead to the rampant belief in annihilation/ECT)
However, there are some interesting and curious pictures of Judgment in the bible…
In no particular order then:
-
– Who is subject to God’s Judgment? –
Romans 14:9-11 we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. -
–Judgment something to Look Forward to?? –
Psalm 96:11-13 (KJV) Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. 12Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice 13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Isaiah 41:1 “Israel Encouraged” “Coastlands, listen to Me in silence, And let the peoples gain new strength; Let them come forward, then let them speak; ***Let us come together for judgment.***”
(What? “let us come together for judgment?” sounds more like a worship service!!!)
-
– draw near to us for Judgment??–
Malachi 3:5 (NASB) "Then I will draw near to you for judgment;
(Isn’t that the cry of all of our hearts? That God will draw near to us??) -
– God enters Judgment WITH us?? –
Ezekiel 20:34-36 (NASB) … and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. 36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. -
–forgiving, yet avenging? How can it be both??–
Psalm 99:8 (NASB) O LORD our God, You answered them; You were a forgiving God to them, And yet an avenger of their evil deeds. -
–hmmm… Judgment as teacher of righteousness??–
Isaiah 26:9 (NASB) At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
(Judgment emerges here as “teaching tool”??) -
– I will “feed them with Judgment”??? –
Ezekiel 34:15-17 (NASB) I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD. 16 "I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. ***I will feed them with judgment. *** -
– much “Judgment talk” in the bible of course includes FIRE imagery…
Revelation 14:10 (NASB) he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Isaiah 66:15-16 (NASB) For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.
Isaiah 4:4 (KJV) When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Daniel 7:9 (NASB) The Ancient of Days Reigns"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. -
– Paul warns Christians about this judgment of their works by fire –
1 Corinthians 3:12-14 “…their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. …" -
– But what is the actual purpose of this Fire? To destroy?? –
Malachi 3:2 (KJV) But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
Isaiah 48:10 (NIV) See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
(destroy? yes: but only that which is false and rebellious… often spoken of as the “flesh”… actual destruction of the person is not in view…)
- – If Fire’s intent is to purify, might punishments intent be to discipline??? –
Hebrews 12:6 (NASB) For those whom the Lord Loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.
Hebrews 12:11 (KJV) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
- – Could it be that God destroys sinners by … making them His friends??? –
Romans 5:10 (NIV) For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
So, how might this work out in actual practice; in the actual experiences of those in the biblical narratives…
- – Who could be more worthy of Judgment/Punishment than Egypt, and Assyria?? But LOOK at the purpose and effect of this Judgment and Punishment!! –
Isaiah 19 (NIV) – A Prophecy Against Egypt
1 A prophecy against Egypt:
19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them.*** 22 The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will STRIKE THEM AND HEAL THEM. They will turn to the LORD,*** and he will respond to their pleas and heal them. 23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. 25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Bible Commentary:
“Isaiah’s message to Egypt opened with a prophecy of judgment and doom. But the Lord is a God of mercy. He smites in order that He may heal. God’s object in sending judgments is not destruction, but restoration, for Egypt as well as for Judah.
Isaiah foresaw the day when Egypt and Assyria would worship the Lord. The nations would live together in peace and brotherhood, happy to serve the Lord. This prophecy will find it’s fulfillment in the earth made new, when all will know Him…”
- – Or consider the ultimate effect of Sodom’s Judgment!! –
Ezekiel 16
God’s Grace to Unfaithful Jerusalem
49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. 51 Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed. 52 Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous. 53 "Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54 in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55 Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.
15)-- Is it possible that resistance to Grace results in a more severe Judgment? –
Romans 11:22 (NASB) 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness…
16)-- But the more severe Judgment simply is a reflection of Greater Grace? –
Romans 5:20 (NIV) The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
(Thus we see not the tension between Grace and Judgment, but the synergy. Greater sin calls forth greater Grace – which in turn is manifested by greater Judgment… Judgment is Grace’s tool for achieving Salvation…)
There are, or course, many more judgment texts, but I think we can say that Judgment by God is clearly seen in the bible as the vehicle to Salvation!
God is Glorified in salvation, through judgment!!
Those who experience God’s deliverance experience it through His judgment!!!
And since Judgment is promised (though the rebellious hear that promise as a threat…) to everyone, and since the purpose of Judgment is restoration and loving discipline towards a saving end, it is quite reasonable to equate the promise of judgment with the promise of Salvation!!!
The purpose of God’s Judgment, the Goal, is Salvation. And given that Judgment is sure, so too must be Salvation.
…
So that’s a rough outline of my premise here – wondering if this makes sense to you??
It would seem that, given the saving nature of Judgment (eg Egypt in IS 19, Sodom in Eze 16, “Kings of the Earth in Rev, etc etc) the burden to show that a time comes when this Judgment ceases to be saving and morphs into actual annihilation or ECT (with no possibility of redemption/salvation) rests squarely with those who believe in ECT or annihilation. I simply fail to see where this transition occurs.
Bobx3
Yes!!! Out of context, YOU!