The Evangelical Universalist Forum

KIng of Tyre (Ezek.28:11-19): Satan, Adam or himself?

Some annihilationists claim this passage describes Satan & his ultimate endless annihilation, as per verse 19 of certain bible translations, such as:

Ezek.28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Though i wonder how a non physical spirit being such as Satan would become physical ashes (v.18). And who are these “people” that “know” him personally (v.19)? And if he were to become ashes, wouldn’t that be in the lake of fire rather than “upon the earth”?

These more literal translations do not have the person in question being annihilated forever as the version above:

All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not – to the age.’ "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not–to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not I Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

And speak as if the punishment has already occurred rather than being a future event in a fiery lake.

From a discussion elsewhere among the many internet forum lands:

Perhaps, then, when Jesus said to chop your offensive hands & feet off & pluck out your offensive eyes, you took that literally, too? How many body parts do you have left now?

When someone says of a human “he’s an angel” do you take that literally, too.

Satan was a serpent in the garden of Eden, not a cherub. The only cherubs in the garden of Eden are referred to here & none of them is Satan:

Gen.3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

Satan was not a lowly king of a measly little place called Tyrus. He offered Jesus the kingdoms of the whole world!

And, again, Satan, a non physical spirit being cannot be turned into physical ashes (Ezek.28:19).

God creates all beings (Psa.89:27; 102:18; Isa.43:7), including humans. So the word “created” can apply to humans like Ezek.28 says the ruler of Tyre is (v.2,9).

“Moreover, it is always well to inquire what is intended by “perfect” in the Scriptures. The Greek has three words for “perfect,” and the Hebrew uses it for about six. It is questionable whether it ever denotes sinlessness. Any other meaning would be of little value in this discussion. The word used in Ezekiel 28:15 is tahmeem, meaning flawless. The A. V. renders it without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely, sincerity, sound, without spot, undefiled, upright, uprightly, whole. It is most often found of the animals used in sacrifice. Noah was “perfect” (Gen.6:9) in his generations. This certainly does not mean that he was sinless. David said, “I was also upright perfect before Him.” Does this prove that David escaped the lot of all of Adam’s descendants up to this time? It is evident that the meaning is limited to apparent flaws, not to innate tendencies. It is not a question of sinlessness.”

Then perhaps your excessive literality should also lead you to believe Pharoah was really a literal tree in the garden of Eden & a sea monster:

“Ezekiel himself is full of graphic, poetic images and metaphors (comparisons in which one thing is simply called another without “like” or “as”), one of which is a statement that Pharaoh was a tree in Eden, God’s garden (Ezek. 31:1-18; he is also a sea monster, 29:3-5).”

"…Yet another explanation is better than either the devil-interpretation or the Adam-interpretation: Ezekiel explicitly compares the ruler of Babylon to a cherub (28:14-15). Genesis calls neither Adam nor the serpent a cherub, but does refer explicitly to cherubim in the garden: God’s angels stationed there to keep Adam and Eve out after their fall (Gen. 3:24; cf. Ezek. 28:14-15 NIV: “guardian cherub”).

“…Having this in mind, when we read verses 11-19 we must understand that this is figurative language describing the former blessing of the king of Tyre when he was being faithful to God.”

“…in Eden—The king of Tyre is represented in his former high state (contrasted with his subsequent downfall), under images drawn from the primeval man in Eden, the type of humanity in its most Godlike form.”

“…vs. 14 uses the word “cherub”, but it is still part of the poetical hyberbole of the comparison of the kings fall into pride and sin with the fall of Adam. This chapter is not about a fallen angel from heaven.”

“…Yes, it is a metaphor. Many metaphors are indicated by the words “as”, or “like”. But when poetry is used, metaphors are to be understood as implied.”

“…Indeed the text isn’t clear there (whether he was the anointed cherub or with the anointed cherub”

“…When there is an inspired narrative that contains a significant portion of symbolism (as several biblical books do) and there is no specific historical connection within the immediate context, the conscientious Bible student must seek to determine, on the basis of a broader context, what the background of the text may be.”

“In other words, he is not at liberty to extract, from his own imagination, an “interpretation” that is wholly alien to the historical text or that stands in contradiction to information found elsewhere in the scriptures.”

“On the other hand, when the context specifically identifies the thrust of the symbolism, the issue is settled. And it is nothing short of exegetical criminality to substitute one’s personal “expository agenda” for that which the inspired author has stated explicitly.”

Perhaps the reference to ashes is used only to describe his (Satan’s) humiliation. Compare this verse in Job:

Job 30:19 (NIV)

He throws me into the mud, and I am reduced to dust and ashes.

As to the people who “know” Satan, there are those who will worship him:

Revelation 13:4 (NIV)

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

You may recall that I am not an annihilationist regarding the devil, or anyone else; nevertheless, I did (likewise) suggest in “The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation” that the identity of the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is Satan:

It’s about the king of Tyre. I don’t believe in a creature called “Satan”. The Bible gives no ontology of a supernatural creature who acts as God’s arch-enemy.

Yes, i certainly recall that, Hermano. So how do you reconcile Ezek.28:19 with it being a reference to Satan yet not speaking of His annihilation?

Some people interpret the King of Tyre as having a dual reference to both Satan & the king of Tyre. Though they can attribute v.18-19 to the king alone (for example due to the “ashes” reference, v.18).

I thought you already addressed the question of his not being annihilated quite well here:

Some widely accepted evidence I ask you would prayerfully reconsider–

Satan as a serpent:

-Genesis 3:1 (ESV)

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

-Genesis 3:15 [considered to be the first prophecy concerning Christ’s first coming]

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

-Revelation 20:2

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

-2 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV)

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Satan as an angel:

-Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’.

-2 Corinthians 11:13-14

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

-Revelation 12:7-9

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Satan and his angels possessing men and animals:

-Gen. 3:1 (see above)

-Isaiah 14:12-17 (NKJV)

12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

-Ezekiel 28:1-19 (ESV)

-Mark 5:11-13

11 Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside,
12 and they begged him, saying, “Send us to the pigs; let us enter them.”
13 So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the sea.

-Luke 22:3

Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.

-Revelation 13:3-4

3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

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@hermano appealing to “angels” to explain Satan’s ontology is fruitless because the Bible never gives an account of angels’ ontology!

Just as I don’t believe “Satan” is a supernatural creature, I don’t believe “angels” are supernatural creatures. I think sometimes angels are simply human messengers and other times are used as literary devices.

(That was some quick praying! :wink:)

Surely, Hermano, you don’t believe Satan is “not (existing or being around) to the age”.

OTOH that is easily understood of a human who is “the king of Tyre”. He will not be in Tyre, or seen anywhere on earth, until at least the age when he is resurrected.

The rest of the verse also seems more applicable to a human king rather than Satan. When in the past, after Tyre was destroyed, were all on earth knowing Satan “astonished at” him? Though this could easily be understood of the demise of the human king. Likewise with v.18 where he is turned into ashes on the earth before the eyes of all beholding him:

Young’s Literal Translation
From the abundance of thy iniquity, By the perversity of thy traffic, Thou hast polluted thy sanctuaries, And I bring forth fire from thy midst, It hath devoured thee, And I make thee become ashes on the earth, Before the eyes of all beholding thee.

Note this speaks of it as a past completed event.

You’re request for what I should pray for is ridiculous. “Pray that you’ll agree with my doctrines.”

I would argue that the final destruction of Tyre and of Satan are future events.

Despite the attacks against Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar and by Alexander the Great, the prophesied final destruction of Tyre has still not occurred. Tyre yet existed in the time of Jesus and Paul (Mark 7:24; Acts 21:3), and has been continuously inhabited until this very day.

Tyre is destined to reach new heights under the coming Antichrist. Nebuchadnezzar II failed to defeat Tyre (1, 2), but a later “Nebuchadnezzar” will succeed (Ezek. 26:1-36).

Tyre was never destroyed in the way that the prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah indicate. So we must conclude that the destruction of this city of grandeur on the coast of Lebanon is forthcoming, after it again rises to become the political capital of the Antichrist–like Babylon in Iraq, a future city of worldwide influence.

I would also argue that the coming Antichrist (the “Prince” of Tyre, Ezek. 28:1-10)–a human who is closely identified with the fallen angel Satan–will apparently survive a mortal wound and become fully possessed by Satan (the “King” of Tyre, Ezek. 28:11-19), after Satan is cast down to earth by Michael after trying to impede the first rapture (symbolized by the birth of the male child, Rev. 12:1-12; see also “The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation”).

One viewpoint is that Rev.12:4 refers to the fall of angels before man’s creation. And the Jude 1:6 reference refers to a subsequent fall of angels. To elaborate further, verse 7 says:

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eonian fire. (Jude 1:7)

And an opinion states re verse 7:

“In the same way as these” seems to refer to the “angels” of verse 6. “These” is masculine, and thus cannot refer to the “cities” (feminine) of verse 7. Calvin argues in his comments on these verses that “these” refers to the men of the cities, and not to the “angels” of verse 6. Most modern commentators see it as a reference to the “angels,” however."

“With this link established, modern commentators generally go to Genesis 6:1-4, and assert that this passage speaks of angels cohabiting with human females. This is the “strange flesh” sin of the angels, and God judged these demons at the Flood. This band of demons is reserved under darkness, while the demons (fallen angels) who did not engage in cohabitation with human females are still at large in the world.”

Also earlier you stated that you do not believe in the annihilation of any being, including Satan. While it seems you also accept the following translations & interpret this verse to be speaking about Satan:

All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not – to the age.’ "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not–to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not I Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

What i’m wondering is how you can possibly interpret Satan into that last part stating:

“and you are not–to the eon. (CLV)”

Which appears to be saying the person is dead or nonexistent or not around.

It seems to me your original argument assumed Jude 1:6 was referring to all fallen angels when it fact it doesn’t use the word “all” & and arguably the context (v.6-7) limits it to a particular group of angels as my post elaborated upon.

Furthermore Jude goes on to speak of Satan disputing re the body of Moses with the archangel MIchael (v.9). If Jude thought all fallen angels were permanently locked up somewhere long before Moses lived, Satan included, that would appear quite odd.

Or maybe when he talks of what you call “fallen angels” (a term he doesn’t use), he isn’t talking about supernatural creatures with other-worldly origins.

Well, we do have these two disappearances of Satan, first into the Abyss for a thousand years, followed by an indefinite amount of time in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:1-3 (NIV)

The Thousand Years

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Revelation 20:7-10

The Judgment of Satan

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever [YLT “they shall be tormented day and night – to the ages of the ages”].

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But the passage says “angels,” so what other kind could they be but “fallen”?:

Jude 6-7 (NASB)

6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire [YLT – an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering].

Here is the idea that angels/ celestial beings/ ministering spirit servants (Heb. 1:7, 13-14)/ messengers (Lk. 1:19)/ “sons of God” existed before the creation of biological creatures:

Job 38:1-7 (NASB)

God Speaks Now to Job

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Again, as Origen has already graciously pointed out, here is a verse that indicates just when certain “sons of God” left their “proper abode” and “went after strange flesh”:

Genesis 6 (NASB)

The Corruption of Mankind

1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Since demons are CLEARLY in evidence in the time of Christ (and to this very day, for those who have eyes to see), we easily conclude that not all fallen angels committed this particular transgression and suffered chaining.

Evidently, while holy angels sometimes appear as physical human beings (Gen. 18-19:1; Heb. 13:2), fallen angels have lost the ability to manifest biologically, and, like parasites, sometimes seek biological hosts–Gen. 3; Lk. 8:33, 22:3, and also:

Mark 9:25-27

25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again.”
26 After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, “He is dead!”
27 But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up.

It is all BS. The whole thread is. Go ahead and challenge it, if you can.