The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Kolasis- punishment or torment?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#35

I’m doing some research into kolasis for a sermon I hope to give on Matt 25. Interesting usage in the LXX:

Rolf Furuli"]the Hebrew text never has “punishment”
where the LXX has KOLASIS.
Jer 18:20 SHUCHA “pit”
Ezek 14:3,4,7,30; 44:12 MIKSHOL “stumbling block”
Ezek 43:11 LXX: "and they shall take (or, bear) THN KOLASIN AUTWN
MT: “and if they are ashamed” KALAM
I do not have the Greek text of Josephus at hand, but from previous studies
I remember passages where he used KOLASIS with the meaning “punishment” or
“torment”. In 2 Macc 4:38 KOLASIS is evidently used for the penalty of death.I looked them up (inserted URLs above) & it seems he’s correct. I wonder what Barclay would make of that :confused:

Ah, I’ve found another helpful post about it:

Which I reckon explains why it’s translated “stumbling block”, because if you cut off someone’s legs (i.e. maiming) they would stumble :open_mouth:

Dr. Larry Perkins"]To conclude, the claim that Matthew’s use of kolasis in 25:46 describes a temporary punishment that is designed to be corrective, i.e. a kind of pruning to stimulate a more appropriate response, does not seem to be borne out by the evidence of usage in the century before and after Jesus, given the context of Jesus’ teaching in that section of Matthew’s Gospel. The noun and verb both are used to describe divine punishments meted in accord with God’s judicial sense and in response to human impiety, both in this life and in the life to come. The usage in Wisdom of Solomon, Philo and Josephus is particularly telling, along with the Phrygian and Lydian inscriptions, I would suggest.

However he mentions in the footnotes:

I might be wrong but 1 Peter 2:20 actually sounds like discipline??

e.g. receiving God’s favor after suffering -> good coming out of suffering

Similarly with 1 John 4:18:

We fear Love’s correction but Love removes this fear (but not the correction). While we still fear we have not yet been corrected by Love.

#36

Yes, “kolasis” meant “cutting off”. It was originally used in the sense of pruning trees to correct their growth. Later, it was figuratively used in the sense of correcting human behaviour. Is that not the sense it is used in Matthew 25:46?

And these [the “goats”] will go away into lasting correction but the righteous into lasting life.

#37

Paidion… although I see things from an eschatological angle I’m not completely averse to this, but… what in your estimation does text’s “lasting life” actually mean? I ask because someone is bound to conclude that the “correction” you mention MUST by the nature of things also have the same “lasting” meaning applicable to it? Assuming (always a dangerous thing to do) the “lasting” carries the typically accepted notion of unceasing continuity wouldn’t that leave the “correction” with a permanency of which the text itself (according to your notion) provides no way out? Or, is there another explanation?

I’m sure someone somewhere has put something similar to you –- what is your solution to this from the text?

#38

Paidion can give an answer based on the original languages, Davo, but I would say that the correction lasts (that is, it works and has permanent results) and the life lasts (it too is permanent).

#39

Well, let’s consider what “αἰωνιος” (aiōnios) actually means. I claim that it means “lasting”, and that that meaning fits every context.
However, it is important to observe that “lasting” can be applied to things that are temporal, or to things that are everlasting. So in “The Wars of the Jews” by Josephus, the word applies to Jonathan’s jail term, which was said to last 3 years. That 3-year period was “lasting”, but certainly not everlasting. But the word is also used to describe God. (Rom 16:26), and it is true that God is lasting, though He’s also everlasting.

In Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats, the goats go into “lasting correction” and the righteous go into “lasting life.” The correction of the goats is temporal. For “everlasting correction” doesn’t make sense. How could correction be everlasting? If it were everlasting, then those enduring it would never actually be corrected. That correction comes to an end at some point, and so it is not everlasting. On the other hand, the life given to the righteous is lasting, and also everlasting.

#40

Paidion,

I like what you are saying. But if the correction is everlasting (which I don’t believe) couldn’t those who receive it reject and refuse the correction forever?

#41

Looking at the lake of fire as an example of aionian kolassis I have a theory backed up by some verses as to the nature of it, and perhaps even how the duration is determined.

In brief,

In Revelation John sees Jesus, his eyes are as flames of fire and sword proceeds from his mouth.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

I believe that light is fire to darkness. That fire consumes impure motives(1 Cor 3;15). So no one can resist correction for any longer than it takes for the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ to penetrate their veils and expose the secrets of their hearts, “You shall not escape until you have payed the last penny”

the last penny is confession and repentence, remorse and change of heart Psalm 51)

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them…6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Whether time is a factor in the lake of fire, or whether it is a matter of intensity(many stripes few stripes), the goal is for the light/fire of God, in the form of the sharp two edged sword of the word(Logos- inclusive of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ- the presence and light of God in Christ) to “bring every hidden thing to light”.

Isaiah 27
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
2 In that day sing to her,
“A vineyard of red wine!
3 I, the Lord, keep it,
I water it every moment;

Everyone has a Leviathan in them until the Lord slays it with His word, the revelation of Christ crucified, the piercing of the heart and discerner of the reins and motives, the secrets of the heart.

For some this occurs in this life- and these are written in the lamb’s book of life. “Come enter the joy of your Lord”.
For some it will occur through an experience of being penetrated by the light, the two edged sword exposing the secrets of their hearts, and the fire of God that is in the eyes of Jesus consuming every darkness in the soul, until they are subjected(1 Cor 15 22-28), reconciled(Col 1;16-21), gathered into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11). Until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

IMO, no one could resist that light forever. The superiority of the love of God, expressed in the cross of Christ, is the ultimate argument in favor of love versus hatre, light versus darkness, harmony versus chaos, and it will consume every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God.

#42

That was an awesome post, Eagle’sWay!
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/229031_thewave.gif

#43

Thx :slight_smile:

Why is Universal Salvation not Explicit?
For God locks up all together in stubbornness
#44

I know I posted the following in another thread, but it seems to belong in both that one and this one. :smiley:

To find out what a Greek word means, one should look up the word in many writings. Lexicons can be deceiving. Besides with a dozen of more “definitions” how can you know the primary meaning of the word? I find that the dozens of meanings which lexiconophers (newly coined word) produce are usually possible words that may be placed in translations to make sense. It doesn’t really help much to understand the word. I go also by the etymology of the word. I have studied Greek for several years, and my faith in lexicons has been steadily decreasing. I look up the words as they are normally used in the Septuagint (including the apocrypha), and in extra-biblical Greek writings.

The words which have been translated as “eternal punishment” are the Greek words “αἰωνιος κολασις” Let’s consider “κολασις” first. This word was originally used for “prune” as in pruning plants. Plants are pruned by cutting off certain parts so as to correct the growth of the plant. “κολασις” was used in classical Greek in reference to a means to correct an offender. Look at any Greek lexicon, and you will find “correct” is given as one of its meanings.

The word is found only twice in the entire New Testament — Matthew 25:46 in regards to the goats in Jesus’ parable, and I John 4:18 :

There is no fear in love, but complete love casts out fear. Fear has κολασις. The one who is afraid is not completed in love.

What could the statement “Fear has punishment” possibly mean? I could understand “Punishment has fear”, but not “Fear has punishment”. Do you know of anyone who has been punished because he is afraid?

However, I CAN understand “Fear has correction”. The context of this statement indicates what the correction is. A state of fear in a person can be corrected when that person is completed in love.

Now back to Matthew 25:46 where the goats are to be sent into “αἰωνιος κολασις”. If we agree that “κολασις” means “correction”, then what would “eternal correction” mean? If a person were corrected eternally, the correction would never be completed, and thus the person would not be corrected at all!

Fortunately “αἰων ιος” DOES NOT mean “eternal”. Indeed, it never means “eternal”. It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰων”, which means “age”. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰωνιος” as “agey”, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”.

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.

But the clincher comes from the Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, written by Chrysostom. He wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰωνιος (agey), in other words it will cease with the present αἰων (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰωνιος” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “ lasting” but in this case also “temporary.”

As I see it, the following would be a correct translation of Matthew 25:46

And they [the goats] will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life.

Lasting correction is correction which endures. At some point it comes to an end. Lasting life is life which endures. But it just so happens that the lasting life we receive from Christ endures forever. But the idea of “forever” is not inherent in the word “αἰωνιος”.

The true Greek word for “eternal” is “αἰδιος”. That word is found in the following verse:

Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. Romans 1:20

#45

aidos in Jude does not mean everlasting does it?

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting(aidiois) chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

it only means until the judgment of the great day.

#46

Thanks Paidion… you’re right, “everlasting correction” doesn’t make sense. It seems unfortunate though that the other side of the coin doesn’t quite gel consistently with regards to the “lasting life” either. IOW… to just switch the understanding of the selfsame term between temporal and then non-temporal for no other reason than a latter rendering would make no sense with regards to “the life given to the righteous” if it isn’t “eternal”, just seems a little unconvincing.

Actually I think you might be closer to the mark here with the combined thoughts of “agey” and “enduring”. Young’s Literal Translation pretty much uses “of/to the age/s” and or “age-during” so ‘age-lasting’ would seem quite a reasonable rendering for “αἰωνιος”.

Given that God is ever enduring He is God of the age/s, of each and every succeeding age. Thus whatever age may be in view though it be temporal, He is yet the God of it as in “age-lasting”… what we call eternal.

#47

Davo, I think “lasting” as a translation of “αἰωνιος” fits every context. Inherent in the meaning of the word is no indication as to the duration of that lastingness. It could last 3 days (as Jonah’s time in the belly of the fish), 3 years (as Jonathan’s time in prison), Many decades (as a stone wall), thousands of years (as mountains) or everlasting (as God). The length of time the goats must be corrected is unknown, but when they have been corrected, the correction process will come to an end. All we know about that process is that it is lasting, and that it may be uncomfortable.

#48

aionios is the Greek for olam, or owlam. A study of olam gives a lot of insight into aionios as a Greek word translating a Hebrew thought.

#49

Yes absolutely. My point is that “age” (αἰων) along with this sense of defined “lasting” thus “age-lasting” (however long that might be) makes obvious grammatical sense.

Of course this is all just one side of the coin because “eternal” or “everlasting” as Jesus specifically uses it at one point shows it carries an unequivocal QUALITATIVE meaning, thus NOT quantitative in terms of longevity… no matter how sort/long we might think it to be.

Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Understood in this qualitative manner as above it is possible to see that what the goats and sheep received at “the end of the age” was the FULLNESS (this is qualitative) of retribution or reward. NEITHER had to do with an endlessness of destruction or life, but rather the FULL measure associated with either. Remember… Jesus said “I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

#50

I’ve heard the qualitative meaning stated rather often, but I have never encountered any convincing justification for it. As I see it, the simple translation “lasting” fits every context, and is the straightforward meaning. “aionios” life is simply lasting life, and this lasting life that we have in Christ also happens to be everlasting.

#51

I agree with you 100% on this Paidion!

#52

So you’re NOT at all convinced by Jesus’ most direct and defining explanation… “THIS IS eternal life” i.e., ‘to know God’ (Jn 17:3) – who then will you believe? This is the SAME “life” Jesus speaks of earlier in Jn 10:10… it is qualitative life, that is LIFE TO THE FULL, the very essence of what it means to live life. How is that not hard to understand :question:

#53

I would also like to add that the words “fire”, “torment” and “brimstone” in the Greek Lexicon have the definitions of:

  1. Torment - a testing by the touchstone

  2. Brimstone (sulfur) - divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having the power to purify

  3. The word “fire” in “The Lake of Fire” comes from “pur” which means to purify.

Definitions come from “Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament”

#54

Just to back up what Paidion is saying:

The argument made that because the passage is in Matt. a parallelism the Greek word cannot take on it’s finite meaning in one instance and it’s eternal meaning in another doesn’t hold. Paidion is being consistent by using the Greek words meaning as “lasting” both times. The term in and of itself doesn’t mean forever although it can refer to eternity because eternity is lasting. This follows the principle of consistency in interpreting the Greek as “lasting” in both instances.