The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith"

In his book “The Case for Faith”, Lee Strobel tackles several obstacles that one might have in believing the Christian message. One chapter is titled “Obstacle #6: A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell”.

Strobel interviews Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland, a professor at the Talbot School of Theology. According to Moreland, hell is not a torture chamber, rather that hell is “God’s Fall Back Position”. In other words, since we have a freewill, and if we “fail over and over to live for the purpose for which we were made…then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we’ve asked for all along in our lives, which is separation from Him.”

So, Moreland continues, “…hell is relational”…

he goes on to explain that God is a consuming fire and thus a long as we are in a rebellious state, He will remain a consuming fire (God’s judgment). Much of the talk about gnashing of teeth, flames, and worms is figurative, attributing these as descriptions of the depraved condition of one’s soul. There is also some discussion about the ‘light’ all men receive, through the evidence of creation and conscience, and no one is excused, even though they haven’t heard of Christ.

Except for the finality of a permanent existence of hell, I tend to agree will much of what Moreland is saying concerning the nature of hell and the relational aspects to God. However, he states the reason for the finality of hell that the worst thing a person can do is not to commit murder or adultery, but rather the worse thing is “to mock and dishonor and refuse to love the person we owe absolutely everything to, which is our Creator, God Himself”. The longer a person reject and that once this life is over, the longer one takes in the hereafter continues for that person, that is, one would not be *able *to repent, nor have that opportunity. C’est la vie!

I don’t know if everyone really does have that opportunity. It says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If one had no opportunity to hear, being only left with creation (which can be distorted by evolution teaching) and conscience (which can be influence by one’s surroundings and by others to the point of being seared, seeing that the Word was never effectively preached), then one is in dire straits to have much of a chance to love God properly, if at all (especially if evolution leads to athiesm).

But I have some other bizarre quotes from Moreland taken from Strobel’s book:

  1. In regards to those in heaven thinking about those in hell - “First of all, I think people in heaven will realize that hell is a way of honoring people as being intrinsicallyvaluable creatures in God’s image…You have to remember that the soul is big enough to have a unperturbed sense of joy, well-being, love, happiness, while at the same time having a sense of grief and sadness for others.”

I don’t know how one could get over their loved ones pictured in hell for eternity. Much less have an “unperturbed sense of joy”.

  1. In regard to making a choice postmortem - “The next thing you have to keep in mind is if people saw the judgment seat of God after death, it would be so coercive that they would no longer have the power of free choice. Any “decision” they made would not be a real genuine free choice; it would totally be coerced…they’d be making a prudent ‘choice’ to avoid judgment only.”

Really? Aren’t we trying to do the same when we warn people of hell and God’s judgment on this side of death?

  1. On God forcing everyone to go to heaven - “Because that would be immoral…if you forse people to do something against their free choice, you’d be dehumanizing them. You would be saying that the good of what you want them to do is more valuable than respecting their choices, and so you’re treating people as a means to and end by requiring them to do something they don’t want”

Now to a certain extent, I get what Moreland means, however once a person know what he’s in for, once he finds himself looking down in the pit of hell forever and ever, wouldn’t that tend to make him reconsider his position? I’m not saying that God should force them into heaven, but considering the alternative, don’t you think that a more informed decision is needed once the full light of reality kicks in?

  1. On children being sent to hell - “You must understand that in the afterlife, our personalities reflect an adult situation anyway, so we can say for sure that there will be no children in hell”

I’m not sure what he’s saying here. Does he mean that our children all the way up to adulthood are ‘safe’? Or does he mean that children who die (without Christ presumably) take on an adult nature when they face God and are therefore judged as adults, and unfortunately consigned to hell?

At least Moreland is trying to be rational about hell. But the logic falls way short. But I suppose that is the inevidable conclusion one can make if they hold to what Moreland calls ‘eternal conscious suffering’ at the end of his interview he says:

Great news. Instead He’ll just confine them to eternal torment.

Sigh.

Dondi, that was really interesting reading JP Moreland’s thoughts.

I do get the feeling people are satisfied with hell as a forever monument and revere it, as if it were fulfilling God’s purpose, but for all the wrong reasons. It’s never occured to most people that God’s wrath has any other purpose other than torture, that God often uses wrath to turn people. It’s not as if the concept isn’t in the bible.

God allows us to make choices, sees value in that, but I doubt he respects our being blind, enslaved to sin or he wouldn’t intervene to save us from it. I think it’s just the opposite. He is not inclined to abandon us, but look for every last one of us. Thank goodness for better news.

I believe it was the “prince of preachers” Charlse Spurgeon who said, the gospel is like a hungry lion, just let it out of it’s cage…or something like that. The point is just preach the gospel! The power is in the word and not our philosophy or technique.
Lee Strobel is a misguided individual imo who with good intentions meanders scripture a little too much as is this case for hell. In his effort to somehow make hell “reasonable” which he did anything but because he deviated from scripture furthermore that was a misrepresentation of my camp. “God forcing people to go to heaven”? What bible verse is that? God Bless! :slight_smile:

Once again that was opinion and not scripture. We have to be careful. God Bless! :slight_smile:

You misread the intent. The actual question Lee asked is a typical objection that could have been asked of a skeptic: “Couldn’t God force everyone to go to heaven?” Moreland’s answer, to be short, was ‘no’, because it would be immoral against a person’s free choice.

While I agree that God wouldn’t ‘force’ anyone to go to heaven, unless one had actually seen heaven, I find that the decision whether to accept or reject heaven on our side of eternity to be an ill-informed one. How would you know that you’d want to go to Disneyland if you never seen what it looks like? Or Hawaii unless you’ve seen pictures of it? How many of us really know what heaven will be like, other than what we see in scriptures? And how many have misconceptions of heaven?

Oxy, one of my brothers used to say stuff exactly what you just said. Turns out he just wanted everyone to reference chapter and verse after every statement they made. :slight_smile: I don’t want to assume this of you, because I don’t think you mean that…but I honestly can’t think of what you might mean, otherwise…

Just to clarify your statement:

amy said, “God often uses wrath to turn people”
you say, “that was opinion and not scripture.”

amy said, “God allows us to make choices, sees value in that”
you say, “that was opinion and not scripture.”

amy said, “I doubt he respects our being blind, enslaved to sin or he wouldn’t intervene to save us from it.”
you say, “that was opinion and not scripture.”

amy said, “He is not inclined to abandon us, but look for every last one of us.”
you say, “that was opinion and not scripture.”

Brother, I don’t know what Bible you’re reading. You can honestly say you see no biblical support for any of those statements? :confused:

On topic, Westmoreland’s one of Christianity’s clearest thinkers, but he does seem to fall short on rationally (and biblically) explaining how people can remain in hell forever. I agree with Dondi.

I don’t know where this “free will” came from probably because we live in a free society and think that is our “right” but scripture says, Jesus is our master and we are slaves to Christ-slaves have no rights. I don’t see free will in the bible other than we are free to sin but we are not free from sin. If we truly had free will then we would be able to not sin. God Bless! :slight_smile:

Yes, this chapter of the book disturbed me when I read it. No matter how merciful people try to make ECT out to be, it just plain isn’t. There are really no excuses for it.

Well, on this, Oxymoron, we agree. :slight_smile:

There is a difference between free will and free choice (the latter which term Moreland used). Free will implies that one is absolutely at liberty to do anything one wants, in which case only God has that power. He will rule His kingdom. Even in a free society, we are governed by the laws of the land and by the direct or indirect actions of others. By free choice, we mean that we are able to choose to do certain things, all within the boundaries of the forementioned limitations.

Since the invitation from God is “Come unto me”, God has given us a choice within the boundaries of His Kingdom. He is not forcing us into that decision. The Holy Spirit’s job is to convict us of our need for a Savior. but no matter how powerful He is, but we still have to respond.

That’s a great post Dondi! Not sure how I missed it. (My but our little site does grow doesn’t it?? :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: )
And not sure how I’d forgotten that book of Strobel’s. I generally liked the book – but read it before I became UR! so…

But the tougher part for me is the Moreland stuff. I LOVE that guy! One of the great current Christian apologists I think! And I read his book “Scaling the Secular city” with great eagerness way back when it came out and I was a fledgling newborn Christian! He made my new belief in God seem so legitimate!

So yeah, it really does kinda hurt to see such a devoted Christian mind build a case for what I see as utterly indefensible actions by God.

As you mention, it really does cause the mind to boggle. Question: if hell is “relational” and separation from God, why is that so painful for the sinner – and like torture? Doesn’t the sinner already have a low opinion of God? That being so, why is separation from this God so painful? Just doesn’t add up to me.
Also, if God lets people go to the place where they’ll be “happy” are we now saying that hell is a place of happiness???

Oh my!!

And the apparent respect for freedom Moreland tries to sustain is incredibly weak to me. As if salvation doesn’t count or something if God makes His case too strongly. Hell is nothing if not God making His case with incredible force! Don’t you think??

But this is too much for me – being in a state of an “unperturbed sense of joy" even while my loved ones suffer in hell?? That seems beyond delusion and moving right into the realm of creepy… Yikes!

Thanks so much for steering me to this Dondi

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Great post Dondi, sorry I didn’t find it earlier.

This argument absolutely winds me up every time I hear it trotted out. What kind of Father would God be if this were true?

Let’s say my son is suffering with depression and I see him repeatedly hitting himself on the head with a hammer. I am a very imperfect father, but would I not be right to intervene and stop him doing this? Or would it be immoral for me to intervene? Would I be dehumanising him by intervening? Would I be wrong in asserting that what I wanted him to do was more valuable than respecting his free choice? Only an abstract philosopher would dream of answering “yes” to any of these questions. God cannot be a worse or a less loving father than me. Am I missing something?? :confused:

More support for UR. Thanks. :slight_smile:

After all, if we are only free to sin, then it is up to God to make us thoroughly free from being free to sin. (of course, sin never brings freedom, sin and evil restrict freedom) - if it is up to God, and indeed it is; he would be an immoral respecter of persons to leave men incapable of being saved without his act of saving them, unsaved. It would be tantamount to committing murder on his part. The perfect God cannot commit murder.

Superman, and three people were standing in a room that was doomed to be destroyed, and everyone in it if they didn’t escape.

If all three men are only free to be helplessly paralysed from the tip of their head down, all except Superman (who in this example is absolutely 100% capable of saving all of the paralysed men) from the soon to be destroyed building; if Superman only rescued one man, but left the others behind on purpose - he’d have committed murder against the two men he left behind.

God is of course, much more powerful than Superman, supposed to be much more willing (if we are to believe the Bible when it says that he wills that none should perish, willing all to come to the full knowledge of the Truth, willing that all should be saved) and if man is thoroughly incapable of being saved without God saving them; then God must save them. Lest he be a murderer.