The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Leonard Sweet's Why I Believe in Hell

He’s defence started to really fall apart after his second point in my eyes. What do you think and how would you counter his five points?

deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Cor … losure.mp3

Do you know if there’s a transcript of this, Pilgrim? I looked but didn’t find one. Or if not, approximately how long is the sermon. I’m curious what Sweet has to say on the subject, but perhaps not curious enough to listen to an hour-long discourse.

Thanks! :slight_smile:

There is no transcripts that I know of… the talk is only about fourteen minutes longs.

Thanks, Pilgrim – I don’t like those kinds of links because they don’t tell you how long the sermon is going to be and you could end up listening for an hour and a half if you’re to get the gist of the thing.

Yeah, I think you’re right. He’s missing it there. You expect more of someone like Sweet, frankly. It seems he thinks there are only two options; an everlasting hell or no hell at all.

In addition, Jesus painted hell as a place no one wants to be in or to go to. This idea of the attractive power of hell to the sinner who “chooses” it is helpful in making us feel better about God condemning people (or allowing them to choose it) to hell forever, but it isn’t scriptural. Hell is weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is pounding at the door pleading, “Lord, let us in!” It is the worm that doesn’t die and the fire that isn’t quenched. This is not a tourist resort for the reprobate. It isn’t fun. It isn’t meant to be.

Sweet mentions the “baddies” of history, but he says nothing about the relatively innocent victims of the baddies, many of whom are also, according to traditional doctrine, headed for an eternity of torment. What about the unsaved victims of the Nazis? Pol Pot? Lenin? Stalin? Mao? Surely there were at least some of them who deserved hell less than their murderers?

Yes, the evil very bad guys do need to feel the wrath of God for their wicked ways, but what about Grandma, who was such a sweet lady but never went to church or said the magical prayer, so far as anyone knows? I agree with Sweet that hell is necessary, but why does he need it to last forever and ever? And why, if he’s publishing a commentary on it, doesn’t he know that UR certainly does not preclude spending time in hell as needed? I’m disappointed in him for this even though he does have good things to say on many occasions. You shouldn’t agree to talk about a subject you don’t understand, and Sweet doesn’t seem to understand that hell isn’t either forever or nonextant. It’s an important point, which he has skipped over all together.

Thanks for posting this, Bro. :slight_smile:

Blessings,
Cindy

Leonard Sweet on “Why I believe in Hell!” (His points either bulleted or in quotes. My comments are otherwise.)

  1. I’ve been there. A relationship gone sower turns heaven into hell. He’s saying that for some people, relationship with God is so bad that it is Hell. This is just crazy. If God is love then to be without relationship with Him is Hell, but not to be in relationship with Him. This argument supports the concept of Hell in this present evil age, but not a punishment that lasts forever. Shoot, if God wanted us to be forever in bondage to evil, forever surrounded by death and decay, He only need let us live forever in this present evil world. But thanks be to God that He doesn’t do so, but in His mercy brings an end to this present evil age for us all.

  2. Hell ultimately preserves human freedom. “I don’t see how we can have freedom without Hell.”
    And where does he see that humans are free? We do not choose to be born, when to die, who to be born to, what talents to posses, whether or not to ever receive a revelation of God, etc. etc. etc.

“From page one of the Bible, he argues, that we are free to go to Hell as our choice.” - And yet, not once does scripture specifically name or warn of Hell, especially not in the OT!

“Hell is God’s greatest compliment to humanity.” This statement makes no sense to me at all. The greatest compliment to humanity is that we are made in the image of God, not that God would allow us to suffer forever.

To me human freedom is an illusion, self-deception. God allows us to make some (very few, maybe 1%) choices, but scripture affirms that without God there is no “freedom”, instead we are slaves to unrighteousness, slaves to our passions and desires, even slaves to demonic forces, in bondage to evil. We are not “free moral agents.” We are not “free” and we are certainly not “moral”!

  1. I know there is a real Hell because some people want to live there. Some people just don’t want to be happy. They are only happy when they are in Hell and making Hell. Some people don’t want wholeness, addicted to misery and pain.

Some people want to live with aliens, does that mean there are aliens. This argument is completely crazy. Many people don’t want something, because they are decieved, ignorant, haven’t experienced relationship with God. If a person is healed, set free, they will desire to be loved by God. We are saved; we don’t save ourselves. The life-guard who allowed a drowning man to drown when he could have saved him because the drowning man in his crazyness wanted to drown would be considered negligent in his duties and possibly culpable for the man’s death.

  1. I can’t make sense of History without a Hell. Some people are so given over to evil, the destruction of God’s image, that when I need Hell for them.So there must be a Hell because the only way to make things right in your eyes is for the especially wicked evil people to suffer forever because of the suffering they have caused. I think this guy needs a revelation of his own wickedness and a revelation of the grace of God for us all.

  2. Jesus went there.

And where does scripture say that Jesus went to “Hell”? Also, how does Jesus suffer forever for anyone and still not be suffering? “IF” Jesus took our place in Hell, ECT, and yet His suffering ended and He now sits with the Father, then His suffering was not endless and thus not ECT/Hell!

  1. We need to never forget the eternal consequences of how we live in this life. It is truth and consequences.
    To me, the doctrine of Hell nullifies “truth and consequences” because Christians say, “I have no worries of punishment in the afterlife because I’m saved.” And non-Christians say, “I have no worries of punishment in the afterlife because I don’t believe in or believe something other than ECT.”

Overall I found Leonard’s arguments in support of Hell to be very weak and without substance. And they are certainly completely philosophical and not biblical. It seems he’s doing his best to make a rational argument in support of the doctrine of Hell, but if this is the best he can do I wonder why he still believes in hell.