The Evangelical Universalist Forum

List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Evangelical Universalism
#201

Hi Pog - I’m still a bit worn out, but I can tell you that the above names are connected with Concordant Publishing and Ethelbert Bullinger was an ultra dispensationalist (and English Anglican clergyman) who was a friend of A.E. Knoch. The Concordant universalists grew out of the Plymouth Brethren and have distinctive teachings about end times prophecy and the ‘two gospels’ along with a belief in universal salvation; and their major work is the Concordant translation of the Bible. I think quite a lot of the modern names on Rodger’s snippets are from a Concordant background.

Here’s someone else worth including from an article that Matt posted -

#202

There is quite a difference in theology between Welch and Knoch. Dean Hough is Concordant, and is indespensible to the translation work of the Concordant translation. Many of the articles in the Unsearchable Riches magazine are written by him. I will see about putting together some info about Dean. — So how are you dick?

#203

I’m fine Puddy - are you ‘Puddy’s gab and grill’ Puddy? :slight_smile: Its’ lovely to hear from you anyway - but if you are gab and grill it’s lovely to hear from you again :slight_smile: . Do you know if Ray Prinzing was connected with Concordant publishing? :slight_smile: I think Adlai Loudy and Arthur Charles Lamb were/are?

#204

Jason - here’s one you might be interested in -

Just recently, the Greek Orthodox priest and scholar, Father Ambrosios Giakalis, in his ‘Images of the Divine: The Theology of Icons at the Seventh Ecumenical Council’ has chided certain modern Russian Orthodox theologians (with roots in the Slavophile movement), notable Christians and surely not Origenists, such as Vladimir Lossky and Father Georges Florovsky, for finding universal restoration implied in the Theology of the Icon, thereby allegedly reviving the condemned teaching of Origen.

The icon foreshadows, here and now, the glorification of mankind of the Eighth Day – not only mankind but all of Creation. The small wooden board, the egg yolk base paint, - the symbol of the triple world – holy water diluting coloured paste are the humble beginnings of the substantial Redemption that should operate during the Apocatastasis. For by becoming flesh. Christ made the metamorphosis and the deification of the physical world itself possible. 109
Returning to the Essential: Selected Writings of Jean Biès
By Jean Bies
2004

#205

Yes, I am the Gab & Grill guy. Is all well? I know Aldlai Loudy was connected with concordant. I am not sure about the other names. Loudy’s ‘Eonion Purpose’ is one of his popular writings. He died quite awhile ago. I think these older men, such as Knoch and Loudy would be disappointed with what they see today. Zender told me they had a fervent spirit and took the message of God’s grace everywhere. As for me, I am a bumbling clown!

So I am concerned. You say you are still worn out? Did something happen my friend?
Really nice to hear from YOU.

Puddy

#206

space saving

#207

P.S. As well as his use of Bengel, Wesley loved Henry Brooke’s ‘A Fool of Quality’ so much that he published his own editions (it would be nice to know if he edited out the Universalist affirmations). He wrote a poem in praise of Clement of Alexandria. He broke with his old spiritual advisor William Law when Law became a universalist complaining that the Gospel was diminished without the ‘scorchings’ – but later in life he was sure that William Law was saved. He edited Tillotson’s sermons for his Christian library despite the scandal that attached to Tillotson for questioning the inevitability of God’s threatenings. He also edited the writings of the Quaker Barclay for his Christian library- Barclay was the least universalistic of the early Quakers but still set his hope very wide. According to Southey’s biography he was always perturbed by the damantory clauses in the Athanasian creed… One of these days it might be worth stating a minor thread on Wesley - because I know the topic of whether he was a universalist is often discussed on universalist websites. There are a number of thing sit would be good to know -

I’ve already mentioned Wesley’s edition of ‘A Fool of Quality’ (what did he edit out?)

Whitfield wrote to Wesley telling him that Wesley’s Moravian Brethren associate Peter Bohler - who was evangelising in America - had secretly expressed his universalism and that Wesley should beware that Bohler was using Armenian logic to arrive at this heresy. It would be good to see Wesley’s reply.

It is often stated - as a knock down argument against Wesley having any sympathy for or tolerance of universalism - that John Murray was expelled from the Methodists in America because of his universalism. My question would be, for starters, whether this expulsion was from Whitfield’s’ Calvinist school of Methodism or from Wesley’s Armenian school (presumably since Murray’s from of universalism stresses determinism he was expelled from Whitfield’s’ Methodists – but I’m unclear about how far the two wings were distinct or collaborative)

I’ve seen a source concerning Wesley and Sir James Stonehouse who was Wesley’s friend as an undergraduate and later published a defence of universalism. It records a supposed conversation between the two after the book was published in which Wesley is supposed to have said that he would have hoped that Stonehouse would not live long enough to publish the book. I’m certain that Wesley would not have approved of the book – but this does not sound like the sort of thing he would say. The source seems doubtful on other grounds l – it gets James Stonehouse’s name wrong and calls him ‘Sir George Stonehouse…’

Oh well it’s an interesting one (I guess for any Methodist Universalists). Any request and I’d start a minor thread on it.

Dick

#208

I’ve updated the list with your entries, sobornost. Thanks again - and please, feel free to take a break! You’ve earned it! :slight_smile:

I’ve cobbled together an entry under Convinced Universalist for Ernest Martin, maybe someone who know more than me could give it a once-over? Also, are other members of ASK likewise universalist? Maybe someone can push some names my way?

I’ve put name place-holders for Dean Hough under Convinced Universalist; and E.W. Bullinger and C.H. Welch under annihilationist. Can someone point me towards their bios and some quotes? And, again, if anyone knows stuff about the Concordant Publishing concern maybe they could push info this way? :slight_smile:

In a few weeks I’m planning on giving the lists a bit of an overhaul - ready for the next big influx of names :slight_smile:

I’m thinking of a new format divided first by era, then by category, with tradition underlined for ease of visual search. An example:

[size=150]Modern (death post 1900)[/size]

Convinced Universalists

Abbé Mugnier, Arthur (1853-1944), French Catholic priest famous for taking part in the social and literary life of Paris, and nicknamed “the apostle of letters and forgiveness”:
Upon being asked if he believed in hell he replied - “Yes, because it is the dogma of the Church—but I don’t believe anyone is in it” (xxxx, p.x).

Hopeful Universalists (Strong)

Buechner, (Carl) Frederick (1926-), ordained Presbytarian minister, American Academy and Institute of Arts and Letters recognised author, theologian, and Pulitzer Prize finalist:
‘Dante saw written over the gates of hell the words “Abandon all hope ye who enter here,” but he must have seen wrong. If there is suffering life in hell, there must also be hope in hell, because where there is life there is the Lord and giver of life; and where there is suffering he is there too, because the suffering of the ones he loves is also his suffering. “He descended into hell,” the Apostles’ Creed says, and “If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there,” says the Psalmist (139:8). It seems there is no depth to which he will not sink. Maybe not even Old Scratch will be able to hold out against him forever’ (Beyond Words, p.158).

Hopeful Universalists (Weak)

Paul II, Pope John - Karol Józef Wojtyła (1920-2005), 264th Pope of the **Roman Catholic **church:
‘Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it’ (General Audience of July 28, 1999).

Pluralist Universalists

Hick, John (1922-2012), eminent theologian, Vice-President of the British Society for the Philosophy of Religion, Vice-President of The World Congress of Faiths, Danforth Professor of the Philosophy of Religion at the Claremont Graduate University, California, H.G. Wood Professor of Theology at the University of Birmingham:
‘In wrestling with the problem of evil I had concluded that any viable Christian theodicy must affirm the ultimate salvation of all God’s creatures’ (Evil and the Love of God, p. x).

Former Universalists

Holtz, Chad (xxxx-), American; **former United Methodist **pastor of Marrow’s Chapel, Henderson, North Carolina, who was removed from office in part for his public internet support of Rob Bell’s hopeful universalist book Love Wins. Originally, Chad commented that, ‘I think justice comes and judgment will happen, but I don’t think that means an eternity of torment’, but after attending a conservative rehabilitation ministry (Pure Life Ministries) to overcome ‘sexual addiction’ he altered his stance and declared:
‘I repent of my past denial of hell or that a person could ever be eternally seperated [sic] from a holy God. I know now that I had no fear of God. Therefore, I had no knowledge of God (Prov. 1:7). I was a fool with an MDiv. I was wrong’ (Chad’s blog, Unchained, entry 1 June 2012).

Continuing with the following categories:

Disputed or Often Miscategorised Universalists

Annhililationists (or believers in conditional immortality)

Second Chance and Post-Mortem Salvationists

Inclusivists and Wide-Hopers

Anti-Hellists

Other or Undetermined

Would such a format make it more usable, or less?

#209

Yes Pog that seems good - very good

I know that perhaps one day you are thinking of doing this in a spread-sheet or word document format with search options. For the moment would it not be possible to have the list presented in two different ways? One version with the main categories but without period distinctions? A second with the same categories but with the period breakdown?

I think one day we might want to also look at list breakdown by denomination, by universalist ‘families’ (these sometimes cross denominations), and by country.

:slight_smile:

#210

Anyone know about the religious opinions of Bernard McGinn?

#211

McGinn, Bernard (born 1937) American Roman Catholic theologian, historian, and scholar of spirituality affiliated with the University of Chicago. He has written extensively on apocalyptic thought and on ,mysticism in the middle ages.
Perhaps it might be hard to find a manifesto of his credo because he is a scholar who excavates, clarifies, and assesses the opinions of others

But try this at Google Books
History and Eschatology in John Scottus Eriugena and His Time: Proceedings …
edited by Michael Dunne, James J. McEvoy (and see p.22 for McGinn’s exposition of Erigena)

#212

Pog you asked about Michelle Amirault - so here’s one for her and an extended one for Gary (because he’s important - they have both done wonderful work)

Amirault, Gary (xxxx-), American non-denominational Universalist, YouTube speaker, and founder of Tentmaker Ministries that produces and provides new and historical resources focussed on the message of universal salvation, and provides a counselling service much used by distressed and bereaved Christians coming out of an ECT background. Gary comes originally from a conservative evangelical background and promotes biblical universalism, his website carried the flag for Christian universalism before the current wave of interest.
‘We invite others to participate in sending out the message of the Everlasting Gospel, which is that Jesus Christ has reconciled the world back unto His and our Father’ (*About Tentmaker *at the Tentmaker website).

Amirault, Michelle (xxxxx-), American non-denominational Universalist and YouTube speaker. Michelle is very active in the counselling service of Tentmaker Ministries. She comes originally from a Reformed Jewish background and speaks movingly of her problem filled conversion to Christianity on YouTube where she says of the victims of the Holocaust (and other genocides) -
‘Our Father is not going to raise them from torture and torture them some more just because they didn’t know the Messiah’ (from the YouTube broadcast, The Michelle Amirault Story)

#213

Updated the Amirault’s entries. Thanks sobornost! :slight_smile:

#214

Ken (new member) seems to be associated with ASK (Ernest L. Martin)

#215

Thanks Puddy :slight_smile:

#216

I like the new format proposals, Pog!

However, on a different formatting topic, I don’t think sexual addiction should be in single quotes, when reporting on Chad. He was detailed about his sexual addictions and how the pornography and serial adultery ruined his family life. Overcoming those and reuniting with his wife in proper marital fidelity to her is super-important, regardless of whether he throws Christian universalism under the bus along the way, and/or implies he went with UR in order to be free of fear of reprisal for his (continuing) treachery to his wife.

#217

Currently reformatting the lists: watch this space (though don’t hold your breath) :slight_smile:

#218

POg - here’s an improved one for John Hick

Hick, John (1922-2012) English, United Reformed. Ordained minister of United Reformed Church, eminent theologian, Vice-President of the British Society for the Philosophy of Religion, Vice-President of The World Congress of Faiths, Danforth Professor of the Philosophy of Religion at the Claremont Graduate University, California, H.G. Wood Professor of Theology at the University of Birmingham. He moved from a specifically Christian Universalism centred on a modified version of the theodicy of St Irenaeus in ‘Evil and the God of Love’ (1966) , to a more pluralist, post-Christian Universalist perspective fully expressed in ‘The Myth of Christian Uniqueness: Toward a Pluralistic Theology of Religions’ (1987) -
‘In wrestling with the problem of evil I had concluded that any viable Christian theodicy must affirm the ultimate salvation of all God’s creatures’ (God Has Many Names, Philadelphia,1983 , p.17).

I couldn’t find the quotation above in Evil and the God of Love but it is in the source I’ve cited. And btw - the above biog is purely descriptive and does not show my approval of Hick :slight_smile:

And I’ve just found another biog I found more on -

Abbé Mugnier, Arthur (1853-1944), French, Roman Catholic. The Abbé was a Catholic priest famous for taking part in the social and literary life of Paris, and nicknamed “the apostle of letters and forgiveness”: He was the originator of a saying about hell which has been much used in different contexts.
Upon being asked if he believed in hell he replied - “Yes, because it is the dogma of the Church—but I don’t believe anyone is in it” (Lee Foster Hartman, Frederick Lewis Allen (eds.) Harper’s Magazine, Volume 159, New York, 1929, p. 270)

#219

I’ve hit the first issue with my re-structuring: Are American Universalists and Unitarian Universalists best placed under Convinced Christian Universalists or Pluralist Universalists (or am I getting mixed up …)? Help.

#220

OK Pog – in my view

The nineteenth century American Universalists Church folks are certain Universalists – and thoroughgoing Christina universalists. I find it hard to see which ones were Trinitarians which ones were Unitarians – their Winchester Confession allowed for diversity on this I understand - but that’s a separate issue completely. So all of them can be put in certain.

The Unitarian Universalists in America and England (and Sweden :question: ) – that’s a trickier call. I think those that are Unitarians and still obviously Christian Unitarians should go in ‘Certain’.

However the Transcendentalists need to be put in with the post Christian pluralists with John Hick (rather than the wide hoper pluralists). Their faith was syncretistic and very individualistic. The individualism was a cause of conflict with the American Universalist Church

Members of the merged The Unitarian and Universalist Church of America (from the late 1950’s) are predominantly post Christian pluralist – but I don’t think we’ve included any people from the UUC specifically (apart from someone from the Universalist Church who remained Christ Centred in the face of merger). And any other people I’ve done biogs for from the Universalist Church of America in the twentieth century – before the merger with the Unitarians – reflect the Christ centred Universalist tradition rather than any pluralist and humanist strand.

Please get back if you need any other suggestions – and tell me if my suggestions are crap! :laughing: