The Evangelical Universalist Forum

List of those of who reject traditional hellism


#221

What I’ve said is also true of the examples that Andrew has given of American Unitarians and Universalists - all of his can go in certain. It was Andrew (all Brothers) who first alerted us - gently - to the rather English nature of the list. I know that Andrew has got his work cut out for him in other fields - so I have been trying to prove my non little Englander credentials be getting au fait with the American history of Universalism- and I’ve enjoyed it greatly. Andrew and I also had a pleasant private conversation about the strange case of David Joris (David George) who is one of the protos - and one day Andrew may be able to supply us with a quotation from him We’ve also conversed about a couple of other Anabaptist Universalist not yet mentioned - Andrew knows his Anabaptist stuff!!!. :slight_smile:


#222

The first attempt at the new format is up: first post.

Before I go on to do the other age periods, can people send a couple of days going through the Modern list and let me know where I’ve miscategorised etc. If anyone can fill in any of the gaps there, please let me know.


#223

Good work Pog :slight_smile: - sorry I may have to leave this call to you and Jason. I’m not sure I have the time at the moment. I think my works done here and I should get on with the other historical stuff. But you are doing an excellent job here - so it’s cool :slight_smile:


#224

No worries! :slight_smile:

Have now added 19th c … Oh my! Categorisation is proving very difficult … there’s bound to be some mistakes and some disputes - if you see errors let me know!


#225

Spring clean


#226

Updated Potter’s entry (lovely story!) sobornost, thanks.

I’ve also added in: Clyde Pilkington and Bradley Heath.

Finished the by-age restructuring, but I dare say I’ve made category mistakes, please let me know! :slight_smile:

I have not, and probably won’t, update the original lists anymore, as it seems a little too much effort duplicating entries on two different lists … Or should I?


#227

Agreed Pog - that’s too much effort for you. Leave it as it is at the moment (IMHO). When I think about the list these days it’s more in terms of chewing over individual entries a little more and checking these out rather than doing multiple format lists (I’m sure we all have exciting ideas before we get practical :laughing:).

I’ve got loads of other names etc. I think there’s another 140 from Gary’s list and about 90 from Rodger’s. One day perhaps :unamused: or perhaps not. However, we’ve got a good spread to work on here. I’ll look over the entries gradually :slight_smile:

Excellent job Pog :smiley:


#228

Pog :slight_smile: – the only big under representation on the list is of the very Conservative/Biblicist contemporary Universalist movements I guess (we have a few examples but the examples are thin, especially in terms of informative background detail and quotation). It’s worth us keeping them in mind – Rodger quotes form a lot of them. Some are premillenialists, some have latter rain power pneumatology in the background etc. I think that one thing they have to teach us all of us is to take the bible very seriously and that serious attention to biblical data can lead very conservative believers to universalism (and these movements are unlikely to dissolve in the ethereal puff of transcendentalism etc . However, the downside of some of these groups, in my view, is that they teach UR with other very specific doctrines concerning end times prophecy, polygamy, pneumatolgoy or whatever – sometimes seeing to give these equal weight to UR in a dogmatic and authoritarian way (and they differ amongst themselves about essentials). This is not always the case – but can be a danger. SOo let’s keep a look out for accurate, fair and descriptive information – I think this will be useful. I’m only just beginning to get my head round this one – only recently became aware of it - so we’ll keep in touch on it :slight_smile:


#229

Interesting … Like you, I wasn’t aware of these groups. But they all deserve a place on the list!


#230

Yes they do - it’s just that it’s easy enough to find quotes from them (Rodger gives plenty from this ‘family’ of Christian Universalists) but other background information takes a lot of digging because they are not mainstream and therefore its harder to find. However, we must and will have a go :slight_smile:


#231

spring clean


#232

All updated (with a few edits). Great work as always, sobornost!!


#233

Hi Pog –

Most often the examples that I’ve given above are from the Concordants – and although I’m not a dispensationalist I love the joy and poetry with which they proclaim the gospel of the happy God who is happy when all of his creation are happy – that such a generous and delightful emphasis. And of course, there is a genuine tradition of real and deep scholarship with the Concordants.

Someone else it would be good to find out more about is Ray Prinzing – I don’t think he is directly connected to the Concordants. He is Rodger Tutt’s favourite writer and obviously comes from the more Biblicist end of the UR spectrum. Perhaps Rodger might help with details just for this one…? He is really hard to find substantial information about on the Internet. I’ve found excerpts from his writings, Videos of and about him – but apart from the fact that he is dead while his wife is still alive I’m currently stumped

We must keep a look out for other Pentecostalist Universalists– I think we have three or four currently but there are more, and probably some significant ones too.

And finally regarding Biblicist Christians – it would be good to find examples for the Annis of a Seventh Day Adventist, a Jehovah’s Witness, and a Christadelphian. I know that people on this site have journeyed to EU from all three positions.
All the best to you Pog

Dick


#234

Placeholders for annis -

Brown James Baldwin (1820–1884) English Congregationalist minister and author of The Doctrine of Annihilation in the Light of the Gospel of Love (1875)
**Grew, **Henry (1781–1862) American Christian teacher – at odds with the mainstream in teaching conditional immortality and highly influential on later American annihilationists
**Storrs **George (1796–1879) American Christian teacher and writer. Storrs started off as a Congregationalist, then became an Episcopal Methodist before joining the Millerites from which the Seventh Day Adventist grew
**Russell **Charles Taze (1852 – 1916) American Restorationist minister and founder of ‘The Watchtower’, from which the Jehovah’s Witnesses grew – influenced by both Grew and Storss theologically.
Thomas, Dr John (1805–1871), who migrated to North America from England in 1832 was the founder of the Christadelphians who again grew out of the Restorationist movement. They are also believers in conditional immortality.

plus one certain -

Nickles, CharlesF (1881-1949), American Primitive ‘No-Heller’ Baptist. Nickles was a professional photographer in Scott County Virginia and long time clerk of the Point Truth Primitive Baptist church. In 1924 the Calvinist Regular Baptist Church in the Washington district fell into a bitter dispute between the ‘Hellers’ and the ‘No-Hellers’. The No-Hellers were and are ultra Universalists (although only a few congregations are left today); they do not believe in any punishment in the world to come - punishment for sin comes here in this world. They are also strict determinists – which, with their ultra universalism, suggests the influence of the writings of Hosea Ballou – and they do not believe in Satan or other supernatural forces of evil; they see these as symbols of human evil. Nickles gave the fullest expression of the beliefs of the No-Heller Primitives in his nineteen page essay –*Salvation of All Mankind *(published by Nickelsville, VA, apparently in 1937).
‘In my survey and meditation on the theory of hellfire and damnation, or a living, conscious, Eternal punishment after death, for any of the creatures of His Powerful Hand, I find that it is compatible with the Holy Nature of the High and Lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. And if true, would bar, and exclude Him from the Divine Attributes of Love, Justice and Mercy with which He is so magnanimously endowed. God is Love. We cannot conceive of Him violating the holy faculties of his Person, by consigning any part of his helpless creation to interminable torture’. (quoted by Howard Dorgan, *In the Hands of a Happy God: The “No-Hellers” of Central Appalachia, *University of Tennessee Press/Knoxville 1997, p.88)

And Eric Stetson beefed up -

Stetson, Eric (1979-), American Charismatic Universalist; former Baha’i adherent, he was ordained n 20006 by the Home Missions Church - a loosely organized association of universalist charismatic ministers, small churches and house churches that was founded in 1944. He is the founder of The Christian Universalist Association:, an ecumenical, interdenominational organization for individuals, churches and ministries that believe in Christian Universalism. He is the author of Christian Universalism: God’s Good News For All People -
‘There is a bigger issue at stake in the argument between Damnationism and Universalism, and that is the question of what is the nature of God. Closely related is the question of human nature and how it relates to God’s nature. The Universalist view of God’s justice and judgment — corrective, not penal; limited, not endless — makes sense because Christianity teaches that God is our loving Father. Jesus said, “I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Mat. 5:44-45). (from Beyond the “Hell” Issue: Universalism as a Comprehensive View of Spiritual Reality at the CUA website)


#235

By the way Pog - regarding the no-Hellers - you probably don’t read the jokes thread so here is the old joke about the No-Hellers for you -

A New Yorker tourist goes to a small town down in the deep South in America and asks one of the locals old timers why such a small town has to have two Baptists Churches. And the old timer replies – ‘Well son, this one here says ‘there ain’t no hell’. And this one here says ‘the hell there ain’t’!!! :imp:

:slight_smile:


#236

Like the joke :slight_smile:

All updated - thanks again for the work.


#237

Here is a list of Unitarians, Universalists, and Unitarian-Universalists.
Perhaps this doesn’t belong on the Evangelical Universalists website, but you may find it interesting nonetheless. Click on the number beside each name for details:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un … versalists


#238

Thanks Paidion -

That’s’ really useful! (What think you Pog?) :slight_smile:


#239

I’m on holiday for a week or so now, so I’ll pick it up when I get back … But it certainly looks like I’ll be using it, thanks Paidon :slight_smile:. More the merrier!


#240

de Benneville, George (1703- 1793) English born physician from an émigré French Huguenot Family who became a Pietist Universalist who took the Universalist Gospel to America. Raised as a Calvinist, at around 12 years of age de Benneville was sent to sea and while in Algiers, he observed that the behaviour of some Moors who had been attending a fallen friend was more Christian than his own. After experiences of despair and then visionary consolation of salvation he reported to the French Calvinist church in London that, “I could not have a doubt but the whole world would be saved by the same power.” He was expelled. At seventeen de Benneville felt called to preach in France to an underground group of Protestants, the Camisards and, under severe persecution, he was sentenced to death but reprieved at the last moment. He moved to Germany where he became associated with various universalist groups: the Pietists in Berleberg, Wittgenstein, the Dunkers, the Schwenkfelders, the Philadelphians, and the Rosicrucians. While in Germany he became sick to the point of death and had a near Death Experience while placed in his coffin. He was given a vision of heaven and hell and while in hell his compassion was such that “I took it so to heart that I believed my happiness would be incomplete while one creature remained miserable.” He recovered with a renewed mission: to preach “the universal and everlasting gospel of boundless, universal love for the entire human race.” He sailed to America in 1724 with other Pietist exiles and made his home in Germantown Pennsylvania where he helped prepare that Sauer/Sower version of the Bible, marking out the universalist passages that Sower then set in boldface. In his missionary tours he exchanges knowledge of herbal remedies wit Native Americans, was always welcome in Dunker pulpits and with the universalist Rogerine Baptists, and often stayed at the semi-monastic universalist community as Epaharata cloisters. Elhanan Winchester, who had been attracted to Universalism when he read Siegvolk’s The Everlasting Gospel (which de Bernville brought to America), met de Benneville in 1781. Between 1781 and 1787 de Benneville took Winchester on missionary tours into Pennsylvania and Virginia. Winchester later said of de Benneville that “such an humble, pious, loving man I have scarcely ever seen in my pilgrimage through life.”
‘[The voice of the messenger angel says] And then thou shalt be reconducted into thine earthly tabernacle for a time and half a time and shall preach to the lower world the universal gospel and that the most holy trinity hath a pure universal love towards all the human race without exception, and towards each one in particular. “The fountain of grace bless and preserve thee, and cause his face to shine upon and in thee, and enlighten thine understanding both in time and eternity. Amen’. (Life and trance of Dr. George De Benneville, Pennsylvania 1882, p.39)