The Evangelical Universalist Forum

List of those of who reject traditional hellism

I had this draft lying around until I found some more quotes. But I thought I’d publish it anyway, as I’m not sure when/if I’ll get the time to do any more work on it.

I also wonder whether we should discuss the cataloguing of this database at a later date. There are a number of details that might make this database more useful in the future (dates, countries/provinces, movement/denomination, noted teachers and disciples, and so forth). I also wonder whether Unitarian/Trinitarian, UUltra-Universalist/Restorationist, Hopeful/Convinced tags might be worth using.

Convinced Universalists

Relly, James (1722–1778) was a Methodist minister who converted and mentored John Murray (and had a prolonged conflict with John Wesley). I’ve been looking for a quote (and have found a few of his original works). Will keep looking.

Turner, Edward (1776-1853) was a denominational organizer, a Universalist preacher, and the first historian of Universalism.

Turner converted to Universalism whilst at Leichester Academy (1792-93). Studying with Hosea Ballou (at some point, possibly at the Academy), they became friends and ministered on a circuit together. But as time passed, Turner’s friendship with anti-Ballou Restorationists (like Paul Dean) and his Restorationist beliefs strained their relationship. A debate that was arranged for Hosea Ballou and Turner sharpened their theological and personal differences. After Turner and his Restorationist colleagues published two manifestos, Turner was dismissed from his congregation. He eventually accepted a call to a unitarian congregation, and left the Universalist denomination and his two-decade friendship with Hosea Ballou ended (though he did return to be Ballou’s pallbearer).

John Murray had recognised Turner’s talent, and adopted him as a sucessor and associate (even though Turner was unable to fill that position due to personal differences and health issues). Turner was widely esteemed as having as great an influence as Hosea Ballou amongst universalists. He had helped prepare two hymnals, served innumerable offices of various associations, including a committee to plan and finance a Universalist seminary, and began a history of the denomination (though with little expressed interest by others it was abandoned).

Quote to come, hopefully.

Loveland, Samuel Chapman (1787-1858) was a Universalist minister, scholar, educator and pioneer religious journalist.

Loveland was born to universalist (from the preaching of Elchanan Winchester) parents in 1787. He entered preaching ministry in 1812, and was a friend and Restorationist colleague to Paul Dean and Adin Ballou. He published a bi-monthly magazine and established a “theological and classical school” in Reading, Vermont, that taught medicine, law and Christian (universalist) ministry. Loveland also taught history, mathematics, theology, moral philosophy, Biblical Greek, Latin and various modern languages (claiming to know eleven ancient and modern languages altogether). He ultimately parted ways with the Universalist denomination in New England as part of the Restorationist controversy, after his offer to write a New Testament commentary was rudely dismissed by Ultra-Us. From 1824 he served in the Vermont state legislature, and after leaving Reading, spent much of his later life supporting struggling Universalist churches.

It appears that there isn’t much available of his life or writings. I gathered what I could from here, but unfortunately could not find a quote adequately explaining his view.

Mitchell, Edward (1768-1834) was one of the last trinitarian universalists (with Paul Dean). He was a widely respected preacher, but was never in formal fellowship with the Universalist denomination. An ex-Methodist like John Murray, he oversaw a congregation in New York called the “Society of United Christian Friends” (no connection with the Quakers; it disbanded shortly after Mitchell’s death. David Pickering, a friend and co-founder of the MAUR with Paul Dean and Adin Ballou, tried to hold the congregation together, though faced inevitable difficulties as a unitarian in a deeply-entrenched trinitarian community.)

“Infinite love must desire our happiness, infinite wisdom must know the means which will effect this gracious desire; and infinite power must be able to destroy all that would impede.”
— Mitchell, E (1833) ‘The Christian universalist’, New York, pp.53-54

You’re probably referring to The Dictionary of Unitarian and Universalist Biography Project. Several of my posts have summarised their wonderful biographies. I should have mentioned that earlier. It’s a great resource that many might find useful.

Just noticed John “Father of American Universalism” Murray is not actually on the list! :astonished:

Pog is trying to categorize his list in several degrees from convinced through hopeful and on down in scale (disputed universalists, wider hope inclusivists, post-mortem salvationists, even some annihilationists although no doubt our friendly rivals have more info on those. :wink: )

Where possible and/or feasible he tends to list in the description whether the author is trinitarian or unitarian, too. Ultra-U/Purga-U (Restorationist) could be brought out more, admittedly, although that isn’t always obvious without great familiarity with the author.

As for a MacD quote, I’ll take an unusual one from one of the usual sources, his sermon on “Justice” (from Unwritten Sermons Vol 3, chp 7); mainly because the paragraph immediately preceding this had to be explicitly what Lewis had in mind when he tried to make MacD out as an annihilationist in The Great Divorce: I will always be irked that Lewis willfully discounted the subsequent paragraph here:

“If God be defeated, he must destroy–that is, he must withdraw life. How can he go on sending forth his life into irreclaimable souls, to keep sin alive in them throughout the ages of eternity? But then, I say, no atonement would be made for the wrongs they have done; God remains defeated, for he has created that which sinned, and which would not repent and make up for its sin. But those who believe that God will thus be defeated by many souls, must surely be of those who do not believe he cares enough to do his very best for them. He is their Father; he had power to make them out of himself, separate from himself, and capable of being one with him: surely he will somehow save and keep them! Not the power of sin itself can close all the channels between creating and created.”

(Lewis might not have agreed with that paragraph, but it and several other things show MacD rejected the idea that annihilation was the best alternative to eternal conscious torment.)

Meanwhile, I’m reminding myself again that I still need to look up a quote from Stonehouse – there ought to be ample material, since he wrote what is (so far as I’ve been able to find) the most extensive surviving defense of purgatorial universalism from the Enlightenment period. (With at least two sequels that I haven’t been able to find the texts of, too.)

I hope I haven’t offended Pog’s work here. I think it’s been really great, and my comments were only ideas. It’s just that a tag-system might be easier to use, at some point, as some of our additions belong to multiple categories (Greg Boyd, for example, is as much a hopeful universalist as Eller, and a post-mortem salvationist, a wider-hope salvationist/inclusivist and also an annihilationist; though I think a separate annihilationist category would still be reasonable). We could even add a Dogmatic Universalist tag for Hosea Ballou — (according to Adin) he started teaching that being “born again” really meant converting to universalism! :laughing:

Sobornost, thanks! I need to learn how to google! :smiley:

I found this succinct quote for Samuel Chapman Loveland from the same work:

“I preach that all sinners will experience the salvation by Christ, to be universal and free.”
— Loveland SC (1818) ‘A correspondence by letters between Samuel C. Loveland, preacher of the doctrine of universal salvation, and Rev. Joseph Laberee, pastor of the congregational church and society in Jericho, Vermont’, ‘Letter I’, p.2 Windsor, Vermont

From Edward Turner (and there isn’t much available):

“The glory of God can never be disassociated from the happiness of his creatures”
— Turner, E (1817) ‘A discourse delivered at the dedication of the Universalist Meeting House, in the City of Hudson, N.Y. October 23, 1817’, ‘Gospel Visitant’, Vol.2, p.229, Salem, Massachusetts

From James Relly (also not much available):

“The matter and manner of the Apostles preaching, appears, when among Jews and Gentiles, they taught that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God; and that he was crucified unto death, and on the third day rose again from the dead, for the forgiveness of sins, and the justification of mankind.”
— Relly, J (1812) ‘Union: Or, a treatise of the consanguinity and affinity between Christ and his Church’, D&G Bruce, p.195 (—mildly interesting is that the edition I’ve referenced here was printed especially for Mitchell’s congregation).

Pog I’ve just put a few more in to clear the backlog of stuff I’ve come across in the past month. Please do catch up with me on the Ecclesiology threads sometime - it’s doing work there that helps me to find stuff to share here. Just pop by and say hi. :slight_smile:

See Alex’s thread on Pope Francis - I think we can put him in!!! :slight_smile:
I’ll leave it to you.

Well here it is then (a day later)

Pope Francis, born as Jorge Mario Bergoglio (1936 -); 266th pope of the Catholic Church -
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.” (Homily from Vatican Mass 22/05/2013)

This is the statement spotted by Alex -
This could mean a number of things – but at the very least its hope is wide and it draws the practical implications from this wide hope. He doesn’t take a care to distance himself form Hopeful Universalism - this much is clear.

I think we’re going to need a little clarification with Francis before we can effectively categorise him.

Shall I ask him - or shall you? :laughing:

Stick him in the archives to await developments then :slight_smile:

One last important person I can think of – and keep meaning to plonk down -

Kierkegaard, Soren (1813-1855) , Danish Christian Philosopher and father of existentialism:

“If others go to hell, then I will go too. But I do not believe that; on the contrary I believe that all will be saved, myself with them - something which arouses my deepest amazement.” (Soren Kierkegaard’s Journals and Papers, Vol. 6)

However, note that the follow paper argues that he was a hopeful rather than a certain, Universalist despite appearances. -
Mulder, Jack, Must All be Saved? A Kierkegaardian Response to Theological Universalism, International Journal for Philosophy of Religion, Volume 59, Number 1, February 2006 , pp. 1-24)

It seems to me that he is merely affirming unlimited atonement (probably depends on what he means by “this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!”) and encouraging everyone (even those naughty atheists :stuck_out_tongue: ) to do good so that we all might unite in peace regardless of our different worldviews. Not sure I’d hang too much hope on that quote…

That is the thing about Popes - they must be all things to all men :laughing: But he is certainly a wide hoper don’t you think Andrew? :slight_smile:

But you are right - I guess both John Paul II and Benedict made statements that could be construed as hopeful universalist. This statement differs because it makes noises that the Catholic Church - as the universal Church - is prepared to dialogue with atheists as children of God made in God’s image (the tow previous posts were more damning towards secular culture). Its’ more about practical inclusivism and dialogue than metaphysical universalism then?

That’s great Pog - what a wonderful name for little Pog :slight_smile: I find time because I’m a carer and I have to be around most of the time and I can only get cover to work once a week. So doing this stuff literally keeps me sane at the moment :slight_smile:

That was definitely my take on it. But I think it might even include (a strong) soteriological inclusivism (hard to know without the full context — I had a quick look for a full transcript but couldn’t find it). So it might be wide-hoping. But people’s imaginations are certainly going wild with it: you should have seen some of the comments from my (conservative protestant) friends!

that’s true, Andrew. i saw someone (who i know to sway towards Calvinism - and knows how i feel on that heresy, but he’s a lovely guy) posting a link to the daily mail’s article, which says basically that Pope Francis has declared that Atheists who do good are SAVED! i decline to link to it, as it is our most “accepted” fascist rag in the UK, and they don’t need the hits.
i told him it was misquoted and dualistic in nature, and that he was talking about the extended scope of God’s salvation (for all), and that God’s image is in each of us…and that the concept of how effectively we can resist/reject His plans and efforts was another debate :laughing:

this guy though…i really think i like him!!! he seems joyfully humble and accepting. i don’t know his stance on LGBTQ or contraception (two big issues i firmly disagree with the Catholics on), but he’s getting the CORE stuff right, so far. and he seems to honestly love people.

space saving

The key point there is the term “redeem”. The question is whether God loses anyone whom He has redeemed, and Catholic doctrine is a bit muddy on this point, which is why Calvin went one way (following Augustine) and Arminians have gone another way.

Curiously, the Great Catechism when teaching about God successfully bringing about His intentions, including in regard to redemption, approvingly quotes Dame Julian of Norwich on her revelation that all will be well and the importance of standing with faith in God on that promise! :open_mouth:

yep, that’s the one, Dick lol

Hopeful

Malcolm Guite who describes himself as a’’ priest, poet, rock’n’roller. I play in Mystery Train, and am chaplain at glorious Girton College Cambridge and St. Edward’s King and Martyr’’
(I can’t find the dates ofr him – but let’s say from the looks of him circa 1955 - )

Mother Julian

Show me O anchoress, your anchor-hold
Deep in the love of God, and hold me fast.
Show me again in whose hands we are held,
Speak to me from your window in the past,
Tell me again the tale of Love’s compassion
For all of us who fall onto the mire,
How he is wounded with us, how his passion
Quickens the love that haunted our desire.
Show me again the wonder of at-one-ment
Of Christ-in-us distinct and yet the same,
Who makes, and loves, and keeps us in each moment,
And looks on us with pity not with blame.
Keep telling me, for all my faith may waver,
Love is his meaning, only love, forever.

My pastor Steve Doss is always mentioning Benjamin Rush, one of the Founding Fathers.

Someone may want to give him a look :slight_smile: