The Evangelical Universalist Forum

List of those of who reject traditional hellism

What an interesting thought. Very Trinitarian, namely, there is no such thing as an individual…

Updated.

He doesn’t seem to be saying there is no such thing as an individual per se (which would be modalism not trinitarianism, and maybe not even amounting to modalism since it would deny the individual existence of God, too!); but rather that no individual exists apart from relation to other individuals. That’s trinitarian (or at least binitarian) at the level of God’s single foundational existence. Also a point of theology more often expressed in Eastern Orthodoxy than among Western Catholicism, which is one of the main foundations of EOx (and related) theories of universal salvation: the fate of one is shared by all, and to deny this ends up denying or at least opposing the Trinity.

I hadn’t studied any of that when I arrived at Christian universalism as a logical corollary to coherent ortho-trin (and my approach validates the filioque, which the EOx wouldn’t mostly appreciate :wink: ), but the notions connect quite well and even overlap in places. :slight_smile:

Great info on Solovyov, Dick. Thanks so much!

Spring cleaning

about the individual existing socially:
i was made aware of Ubuntu (not the OS, Jason lol), which means “i am because we are”. It’s a (i believe) South African word (Zulu, then? i don’t know enough to say for sure), which i heard about at church (Dave Tomlinson’s) a number of months back. i think it’s a beautiful and very Christian statement that seems to agree with this Russian fella :slight_smile:

Yay :smiley:

That Zulu digression reminds me that H. Rider Haggard was at least wider hope, believing that Christ would save many who never even heard of Christ – so was his most famous character, Allen Quartermain. (Who was regarded as “A spirit and not a man! A spirit and not a man!” for his Christian charity and justice. Which embarrassed him greatly. :slight_smile: )

Come to think of it, the Zulu narrator of Haggard’s Nada the Lily (grandfather of the Zulu hero Umslopogaas) has a fairly strong universalist streak if I recall correctly. But I don’t have quotes, so don’t put those in yet. :wink: (Haggard certainly was friends with MacDonald.)

Bring him along :smiley:

Did anyone put the writer of “a wrinkle in time”?

Hi Jeremy :slight_smile: -

Yes she’s Madeline L’Engle, and she’s in ‘Certain’. Have you read any of her stuff? (I haven’t apart from extracts :blush: )

Does anyone have any good quotations from Lewis Carroll (whom George MacDonald mentored)?

Also might it be an idea to ask our member who has written the book on Jesus and Hitler for a quote and a personal bio?

I’ve watched the movie :blush:

Was it good? :slight_smile:

Tagging [tag]WesF[/tag] promptly. :slight_smile:

Thanks Jason :slight_smile:

Spring cleaning

Thanks again sobornost for all the hard work you’ve put into this list - so many of the entries have stemmed from your book-work!

I’ve put Schilling in with disputed for now, simply because it kept in consistent with Walt (and it’s easy to find for future editing). The issue of agnostic, atheist, heterodox and non-Christian universalists/ anti-hellists is awkward - though one we’ll need to tackle at some point. For the moment it might be best to focus primarily on Christian (whether ortho - or hetero -) personalities, but obviously a couple of others have already made it in :slight_smile: At a later date I think it would be great if the list was expanded into more areas covering a wider scope. We’ll also need to tidy up the distinctions and overlaps between post-mortem Salvationists, inclusivists, annihilationists etc - but that can wait for now.

I’m also noticing a number of places where there’s stuff missing:

Augustine, Jerome, early church fathers etc I expect will be forthcoming as soon as Ramelli’s book arrives (along with a quote for Ramelli herself).

If anyone can read German, Jens Adam is looking ripe for a quote (and a translation of his book!)

There’s quotes missing for a number of people: William Young, Anthony Buzzard, George Caird, Nicky Gumbel, John (Ed) Sanders, William Temple - I can’t find anything ion the internet suitable from these, anyone got anything?

Also, we only have Gary Amirault from Tentmankers, but his wife also does stuff too, I think? Anyone confirm?

Can anyone think of any big names we’ve missed (well done on Barth, Johnny)? Or popular modern names? Anyone know Shane Claibornes stance, for instance?

Keep going folks - this is great! Though it’s getting tougher to think of unplumbed areas and unchecked names …

There’s a reply on a website from an Anthony Buzzard, which I’m pretty sure is from the Anthony Buzzard I’m quote hunting for (Unitarian bible scholar and Unitarian apologist), but I can’t confirm it actually is … what do people think, useable, or can we find a better one?

“What a joy that an honest Bible-searcher gives the public a chance to renounce one of the cruellest errors of traditional theology-- that the God of all compassion is intending to torture and torment the wicked ceaselessly for eternity. I doubt if most churchgoers allow themselves even to think through what that hideous notion implies. As it turns out it is a pernicious mistake to adopt the non-biblical idea of an immortal soul, from which it would follow that being immortal the wicked could never die!”

patheos.com/blogs/blackwhiteandgray/2012/06/stories-of-hateful-fundamentalists-coming-to-a-theater-near-you/

Oh, just thought … is Ronald Sider (the social action guy) a universalist - I don’t think he’s on the list?