Since embracing my hope in universal reconcilation, I have become more and more cynical towards Calvinism-- not just Calvinism as dogma, but also Calvinists as individuals. Sometimes, I’ve realized, this is subconscious, and at other instances, I embrace my bitterness. Such feelings have spread, although not quite as strongly, to other groups of ECT proponents.
I know these individuals are my brothers and sisters in Christ, so I don’t* want* to harbor such feelings. In an effort to overcome my sentiments, I’ve been trying to think of Calvinists and other ECT supporters who have done good in my life or in society – family members, favorite authors, kind religious leaders, etc. So I figured I’d extend the question to you all: How has a Calvinist or ECT supporter played a helpful role in your life?
There seems to be a bit of discontentment and discouragement looming about the forums lately, so I thought it might be constructive to mention some good about our “opponents.”
When I talk about Calvinists in a negative sense I don’t mean all Calvinists. I mean the belief system of Five Point TULIP Calvinists - who also tend towards sectarianism because of their extreme ideas of election and reprobation. I’ve not been friends with a real sectarian Calvinist. We don’t get a lot of them in the UK. However, I have much enjoyed the memoirs of Franck Schaeffer, son of the Calvinist superstar Francis Schaeffer. In these he reveals his father and mother as warm, loving, muddled and very flawed human beings, in many ways prisoners of a belief system that was at variance with their true kind heartedness. I found this very moving. A belief system that declares God hates most of humanity doesn’t have a lot recommends it in my view - but I thank God that his broken image in us, however broken, can work against our more terrible notions about Him.
I have to admit that I don’t know any hard-core Calvs, so it’s hard to put down a name. I will say though, that while most of my face to face Christian friends believe in ect (not anni – ect), they’re all truly wonderful people and grace-filled believers. I don’t hold it against a person if s/he believes ect. That’s the doctrine most if not all of them grew up with and it’s downright terrifying for most of them to let go of it – they have this (FALSE) idea that they’re saved by believing the right things as opposed to being saved by Jesus (though they’d all, to the last one, deny this).
I was a Calvinist for 22 years. I was one of those that Dick (Sobornost) referred to as a “real sectarian Calvinist” in his post above. I became a Calvinist in high school. For the first 10 years as a Calvinist I did not know very many other Calvinists personally as my link to Calvinists at the time was by means of radio programming and reading books (this was before the internet became popular, so the link to the “outside” world was very limited). Later, I was a member of a Reformed Baptist church for three years, and have been a member of a conservative Presbyterian church for 9 years. So over the past twelve years I have come in contact with a lot of Calvinists, both acquaintances and close friends.
Even among conservative Calvinists there is a wide mix. There are the “proud” hard-nosed Calvinists - the ones that love to talk about election and reprobation with enthusiasm (in my early years as a Calvinist, I was one of them ).
However, on the other end of the spectrum, there are those who are not very comfortable with election, wish there were more elect, but believe the doctrine reluctantly because they believe the Bible teaches it (in my later years as a Calvinist, I was in this camp).
The 19th century evangelist, Charles Spurgeon once said, “Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect—and then elect some more.” source. The reluctance of Spurgeon concerning the alleged limitation of election is shared by many. Such hold the doctrine of election in tension. On the one hand, they are thankful that God did elect some (or many), else (they reason) no one would be saved. They pray, “thank you, God, for electing your church, and thank you that I am one of those you drew to yourself.” Yet, in tension with this, they only wish that God would go back and “elect some more” and that their friends and family will be also among the elect.
I am not at liberty to discuss universal reconciliation with other members of the congregation, but I do have good relationships with many. I try to avoid those who like to talk about election all the time. However, most do not talk about it regularly. It might come up once in a blue moon. They acknowledge it, but don’t dwell on it.
There are many godly Christians that are Calvinists. There are many whom I have been greatly blessed to know. I have no resentment toward them personally.
It is alright to see the negative in Calvinism, and to wish that more Calvinists would open their eyes and see how dreadful the doctrine of limited atonement is, but we also need to be patient with them. For whatever reason, God has allowed them to remain blind to his unfailing love for all humanity. As you said, focus on the good that they have done for you and for others. Love them as your brothers, because they are.
Also, we don’t know what is going on in the minds of others. We would be surprised, or shocked even, if we only knew the concepts that people (whom we think we know) are struggling with; and it is very likely (unless you are a very close friend) they won’t let you on to it. With the exception of the elders of the church I am in and my wife, no one else in the church has had any idea that I have struggled with these doctrines for six years, to the point of almost becoming an atheist.
I’ve had plenty of ECT supporters play a helpful role in my life (though the most significant was a universalist). But I have never had a committed Calvinist play a helpful role in my life — I’ve certainly been torched by them though. I don’t think much of the system, and I think its adherents cauterise their hearts and minds when they assent to it. I don’t believe you can be a good Christian and be a good Calvinist.
1824, thanks…that was a really honest and compassionate post. i think we have trouble with a group when that group seems aggressive or harsh to us, and sadly many Calvinists (struggling though i’m sure they do) SEEM to fall into that. i have personally had limited exposure to real Sectarian Calvinism. My church growing up was Calvminian (without ever using that label, i don’t know if we were aware of the division in thought between Calvinists and Arminians, and i think we modified the view on an unconscious level to be in accordance with views that made more sense to us…picking and choosing as you do )…basically we had salvation by faith chosen by free will…and once you’d done that, somehow God went back in time (or merely predicted you’d believe) and elected you. Once elect, salvation was secure. So you’d make the choice to come in, but you could never really back out (unless your commitment was insincere at the start).
As a result, my theology was peppered with the nicest possible Calvinism. It’s really hard to think of someone that believed in reprobation to any degree in my life, but if there was…chances are they were one of the “in practice despite belief” loving people i knew.
i do agree that someone’s theology can be a chain that binds, but that the person themselves can have enough of God’s Spirit and grace to act lovingly to others despite the belief system. This causes a cognitive dissonance, which it sounds like Francis Shaeffer struggled with. This can (i guess as in 1824’s case?) lead to the possibility of throwing it all out.
This must be a torturous way to live…and i ought to be more compassionate. what makes it hard is when Calvinists come, say, here, simply to promulgate their view that they preach the Hard Truth and that we ought to give up our flowery Universalism and teach reprobation of the wicked, and when we question that, they get NASTY. that’s happened a few times but…the whole reason they are here might actually because they are struggling with that dissonance between their belief system and the God that is whispering to them from their heart.
WAAB…wow, that post was from the heart. sounds like there is a lot of pain there, which fuels my irritation with those who burn others with their ideology
i guess this thread is looking for really positive examples of loving Calvinists. i guess we have Francis Schaeffer (the man) and Charles Spurgeon above…any more? there must be many, as i’ve heard tales of Calvinists doing quite a bit for charity in the UK, but my historical knowledge is limited here. i’m sure they’ve done a lot of good despite the limited view of God’s love.
Corrie Ten Boom the woman who helped Jews escape during World War II was a rather strict Calvinist as was her father who helped too and her sister who perished in a concentration camp for her acts of mercy.
Calvin had a far more positive view of the OT than Luther did but he still taught that those Jews who did not convert to Christianity should be despised and harassed and consigned to wretchedness. The Ten Booms - being strict Calvinist’s rather than critical Calvinists - must have simply heard Calvin’s more positive statements about the Jews and ignored the negative ones.
I have several Calv friends and acquaintances among the Christian apologist crowd. None of them have played a particularly helpful role in my life, but I still like them.
Sometimes their half of the Great Assurances helps Calvs be friendly, good-tempered, and charitable toward other people: the news that God has always intended to save sinners from sin and can be trusted to do it successfully regardless of any difficulties, and no one has to convince God to do that, can and should be personally liberating as good news.
(It probably helps that I don’t insult them, too. Edited to add: usually. )
That must be very difficult, Jason…well done showing that restraint!
wow, Corrie Ten Boom! i guess regardless what Calvin said, she couldn’t look at those people in need and see them as anything other than human beings in need…and who knows but maybe Calvin in her place would’ve done the same. Sometimes despite how we rail about ideas, God’s Spirit works through us to do what needs doing.
I would have to admit that I was once one of those rude debaters that tried to shove Calvinism down everyone’s throat, especially since I became a Calvinist as a teenager. I had the “teenage” mindset that I knew better than my parents and teachers. It was in intellectual pursuit.
I guess on a forum like this one would expect to encounter all sorts of motives for debate. There could be some who are sincerely researching what Universalists believe; but they are probably overshadowed by those who are trolling for an argument. Maybe when dealing with such, we need to keep in mind that it isn’t just the debate troller that will be reading these discussions, but also sincere searchers (maybe a couple years later) who are asking similar questions in their mind and might stumble across a discussion here that answers those questions.
Well said, Dan!!! That is very true.
I mispent my own youth on (i apologise for the controversy of the following list - it is personal and i don’t condemn others for disagreeing with me here) YEC, Biblical Inerrancy (though i don’t wholesale reject this notion…i just think it’s a bit less literal than i used to believe), ECT, “Toronto Blessing” style revival meetings, only listening to “Christian rock”, homophobia (default church position…didn’t thankfully involve me hurting people as much as it might), and many other things…and i did all of that pretty much convinced i was right, so i have to remember that God forced me to learn and unlearn a lot of things in order for me to be at all useful in the situations in which i currently find myself!
While reading Hope Beyond Hell I found the following quote very interesting. Albert Barnes was a “New School” Presbyterian (Calvinist) minister during the 19th century. In his reflection on the problem of evil and election, he could not come to a satisfactory conclusion as to why sinners would suffer eternally when God could intervene, but does not.
i love that he wrestled with that. i’m sure MANY people do. it must be awful! in your heart you know that God is wonderfully loving, but in the text you see this arbitrary lottery facilitator…and if you don’t win the lottery…
I think she and her sister - and first, her father - actually saw the text in terms of the human need without realising it (and ignored the other implication’s wihtout realising it). Corrie Ten Boom’s sister was at the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp at the same time as the universalist martyr, dear Mother Maria Skobotsova. I wonder if they met? Despite outward differences they were united in death in the same cause of compassion for God’s little ones. And as they say - ‘May they both rise in glory’
Cindy, I don’t think it is correct to say that they think they are saved by believing the right things. Like a couple of others who have already posted in this thread, I was a Calvinist in my teen-age years. In my case, I persisted in Calvinism until some time between the ages of 24 to 27. I considered it my ministry to convince as many people as possible of predestination and “eternal security” (actually unconditional security). But never at any time did I think that one’s salvation was in any way related to the acceptance of these doctrines. Rather I believed one was saved from eternal hell by “accepting Christ as your personal saviour” or by “trusting in the finished work of Christ” or by praying “God be merciful to me, a sinner and save me by your grace”. I tried doing all these things in order to have all bases covered, but I never thought it a matter of believing certain doctrines. Not have I ever met a Calvinist who thought so.
I truly wanted to know what the early Christian position was on all matters of doctrine and Christian practice, and so I began to read early Christian writers (pre-200 A.D.) and some them them hit me between the eyes concerning my “eternal security” belief. I repented of that false doctrine and from that point I gradually shifted from thinking in Calvinistic terms to thinking in terms that Jesus and the apostles taught. Though I had read frequently from the New Testament, I have been reading it with Calvinistic and dispensationalist lenses. After my ideological repentance, I began reading it differently. There was a paradigm change. Thus there was a gradual process in learning, though I was over 40 before I understood the truth of the ultimate reconciliation to God of all individuals.
Now it never enters my head to make any connection between a person’s theological or philosophical beliefs and friendship with that person. I don’t think God Himself is particularly interested in correcting a person’s beliefs. His plan of the ages is to perfect the character of each individual and thereby bring each one of them under His authority, that is, into His Kingdom.
It can be difficult sometimes to separate beliefs from people like that, though…i think it can be quite helpful to remember specific examples where people (whether they left their beliefs at the door or not) were able to bless us.
Yep, this is exactly what I’m trying to do, because separating beliefs from people is tough – but by no means impossible. Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone.
My mom actually grew up Presbyterian, although she did not hear of Calvinism and its related dogma until I told her about it. My grandpa even made a career as a music minister within the church, but I don’t know if he understood Calvinism or not. So, yes, there are probably way more “Calvinists” who either don’t understand the doctrine they profess or sit very uncomfortably with the idea than there are hard-core TULIP-types.
I’ve heard good things about Charles Spurgeon, but I’ve never read anything from him (partly because I knew he was a Calvinist minister, and I didn’t want to read more about a doctrine that already so unsettled me.) I’m glad to know he has some universalist fans, too.
Billy Graham, Max Lucado, and Charles Stanley remain some of my favorite authors, even though I know they profess ECT. (I actually spent a few moments trying to think of another way to phrase their belief in hell besides “ECT,” but, sadly, that is what these goodhearted men teach. It just seems so unlike the rest of their worldview.)
And it was a TULIP Calvinist minister who helped reassure me of God’s love during a time I felt particularly far from the Lord. Perhaps sensing that I wasn’t too keen on Calvinism, the pastor was kind enough to not bring up the subject and simply focus on God’s goodness and mercy. In the end, it wasn’t his specific teachings that helped me feel better, but his Christ-like patience and compassion.
So even though Christian Universalists are my favorite (duh! ), I want to remember my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently about eternity. Now is the time for Calvinists, Arminians, and Universalists to get along, after all, because we’re going to be together literally forever!
but…the whole reason they are here might actually because they are struggling with that dissonance between their belief system and the God that is whispering to them from their heart.
Edited to add: usually. 
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), I want to remember my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently about eternity. Now is the time for Calvinists, Arminians, and Universalists to get along, after all, because we’re going to be together literally forever!