The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Mark 3:28-29 and Universalism

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Everyone

There is a sin in the bible that Jesus says “has never forgiveness” and will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Can you guess this unpardonable sin that flies in the face of UR theology? You’re right, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to renouce Jesus or contribute the works of the Spirit to the devil . These are two sides of the same coin. Who shall the world believe? Jesus or UR theology? I really don’t see how anyone can honestly believe and teach UR theology with a clear conscience once they are given the truth of the unpardonable sin. I do not endorse this websites theological views, but I believe this particular teaching to be right on the money. Whether or not you agree with Matt Slick’s theology is irrelevant, but judge the content of this particular teaching in the light of scripture. Please take the time to click on the informed link below and read more than once before responding…if you don’t accept what has been established in the word of God that is between you and Jesus. I look forward to your biblical responses. :wink:

carm.org/mark-328-29-and-universalism

God bless,
Aaron

#2

Actually to blaspheme the Son of God is forgivable. How do you figure to renounce Jesus is non forgivable?

#3

Aug, did you even read the article on the link from start to finish? In Hebrews 6:1-6… these born again Jews were renouncing Jesus as Messiah and going back under the law for salvation. Verse 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost…Verse 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance. Notice in Hebrews 10:39 Paul says "But we are not of them who draw back into perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.’ ( Paul is referring to the Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and then renounced him to go back under the law). When you do this it is impossible for you to be renewed unto repentance again. A state of apostacy is worse than a state of ignorance. These people have crossed the point of no return ( Hebrews 6: 4-6 ; 10:26-29)

To blaspheme Jesus is not the same as renouncing Him as Lord and Savior. The subject of my post is the unpardonable sin of “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit”…not “Blasphemy of the Son of God” I welcome your biblical response to the article in the link. Thanks Aug. :slight_smile:

#4

Is shouting curses at the Holy Spirit the same as blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

#5

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when anyone who contributes the works of the Spirit to the devil preferring to call good evil and evil good including the deliberate renouncing or rejecting of Jesus as Lord and Savior…this is the one sin that is irremediable as explianed by Jesus and Paul in Hebrews 6:1-6; 10:26-29. Now, if you would like to respond biblically to the link I look forward to seeing it. :wink:

#6

I’m unsure if I’ll get to that link unless that author would dialog with me. And I mostly only dialog with people about their own posts. Anyway, before I would get to that, I want to make sure that I have a clear understanding of examples of the unforgivable sin. I need to start with slow steps to make sure that there is clear communication. Because if I don’t have clear examples, then I cannot assess this. For example, if a Christian speaks in tongues as led by the Holy Spirit and somebody says that the speaking in tongues is from the devil, then would that be an example of the unforgivable sin?

#7

I’m not going down any more rabbit trails, Jim. Hebrews 6:1-6 and 10:26-29 are crystal clear slow steps explaining the consequences of renouncing Jesus. If you do not wish to view the link then you cannot contribute anything biblically towards this post. Therefore are dialog will be over, my brother. :wink:

#8

That’s as far as you may go, anything beyond that is blasphemy on your part. Now, who has done that here? Who would you send to hell? All of us?

#9

I did infact read the article and I’m not convinced it’s a closed case.

Matt Slick also provided this article to prove that those who are in Christ (born of the Spirit of God) cannot lose their salvation.

carm.org/christianity/miscel … l-security

There. Now you must believe that NO ONE who is born of God can blapheme the Holy Spirit since they’re eternally secure.

Not if Matt is wrong on ES then perhaps discussing the details on BofHS as James would like to do is not following rabbit trails.

#10

Mark 3:28-29 clearly taught about Jewish leaders who never accepted the Messianic claims of Jesus while declaring that the miracles of the Holy Spirit in the ministry of Jesus were the work of devil. And Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-29 clearly taught about people who accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior but ended up deliberately rejecting Jesus.

Also, Matthew 12:31-32 parallels Mark 3:28-29. And Jesus in Matthew clearly stated that blasphemy against the Messianic Son of Man is forgivable while blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.

I see no clarity in Aaron37’s so-called clear explanation of the unforgivable sin. Everybody, does anybody understand Aaron37’s explanation of Mark 3:28-29?

#11

Jesus said that the sin is unforgivable, not the person. Some “sins” are forgivable because they’re not really “sins” that a person is guilty of, they’re honest mistakes. But to say that good is evil or evil is good is the very essence of sin, or violating God’s Spirit by committing an act against good conscience. By going against your conscience (empowered by the Holy Spirit), you are in effect calling it evil. We’ve all done this to some degree. Yet some of us are still saved. How?

Because we are forgiven. But our act of doing so will NEVER be forgiven. That would be to excuse the sin and say it was okay. God can’t do that because he won’t offend his own conscience and call something that is evil, good. He will never himself commit the unpardonable sin.

By the way, welcome back. I see you couldn’t get enough of us after all. :wink: :smiley:

#12

James, I fully agree. This passage is one I’ve raised us against universalism myself but I am fully aware NO ONE has a real good grasp on it.

Often traditional Christians act as if it’s a seal the deal argument but when they have to define that blaspheming Jesus (rejecting Jesus) is forgivable they suddenly create definitions such as - Blaspheming Jesus is to speak badly of him while blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting Jesus - in order to support their idea.

The fact is IN THE AGE TO COME SINS WILL BE FORGIVEN.

Now they have to define what is “age to come”.

Aug

#13

Auggy, Matt Slick’s view of eternal security( which I believe to be wrong) does not take away the point of this post. I have already explained in my OP that I do not endorse his theological views ( He also believes in Calvinism) but believed his particular teaching on Mark 3:28-29 and Universalism was right on the money. :wink:

Btw, If Jesus said there is an unpardonable sin by which there is no forgiveness for in this age and the age to come… its a closed case, Aug. There is no getting around this truth. :wink:

Unpardonable \Unpar"dona*ble, adjective Not admitting of pardon or forgiveness; inexcusable. [Webster 1913 Suppl.]

From WordNet ® 2.0 [wn]:

unpardonable

adjective: not admitting of pardon; “unpardonable behavior” [ant: {pardonable}]

From Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 [moby-thes]:

51 Moby Thesaurus words for “unpardonable”: abominable, arrant, atrocious, bad, base, black, blamable, blameworthy, criminal, damnable, dark, disgraceful, evil, execrable, flagitious, flagrant, foul, heinous, improper, indefensible, inexcusable, inexpiable, infamous, iniquitous, irremissible, knavish, low, monstrous, naughty, nefarious, peccant, rank, reprehensible, reprobate, scandalous, shameful, sinful, unallowable, unconscionable, unforgivable, unjustifiable, unreasonable, unspeakable, untenable, unwarrantable, unworthy, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked, wrong

#14

Hebrews 6:1-6 and 10:26-29 is very clear that once one renounces Jesus and seeks another way of salvation it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them unto repentance.The word for fall away in Greek is “parapipto” which means apostasy or renunciation of one’s faith. This doesn’t mean backsliding. It also doesn’t mean “I HATE YOU GOD, I DON’T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU!” and then coming back to faith with Him within a year or two. It means that after renouncing their faith, their hearts became so hardened and set against the Gospel, they simply CANNOT be restored to repentance! God has died for their sins, and they once believed and knew God personally, walked with Him and everything, and then decided to go against Him, just like satan and the fallen angels! They can’t repent! It’s too late for them! Jesus only died once for people’s sins! He can’t go back and die again for those of whom committed the ultimate blasphemy of the Holy Ghost–unrepentant hardness of heart and leaving Him and rising against Him–that would be disgraceful to God! Paul said in Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. The state of apostasy is worse than the state of ignorance.

Ok, Jim, here some clarity for you: The “unpardonable sin” is this and nothing more: UNBELIEF. The Holy Spirit is God’s active principle in the world, as the Son (Word, Logos) is the Father’s command and direction. By “active principle” we mean that the Holy Spirit is the personified effect of God in the lives of people and in the world. By “blaspheming” the Holy Spirit, Jesus therefore refers to one who denies the divine authority and activity of the Spirit – as did those who attributed the exorcisms of the story to Beelzebul.

Dunn, in Vol. 2 of Christ and the Spirit, puts it this way:

…the beneficial effect of [Jesus’] exorcisms was so self-evidently of God and wrought by his Spirit, that to attribute it to Satan was the worse kind of perversity – deliberately to confuse the Spirit of God with the power of Satan was to turn one’s back on God and his forgiveness (Mark 3:29).

In terms of the post-resurrection scenario, this also applies to those who refuse the prodding of the Holy Spirit to believe the Gospel. They deny the activity of the Holy Spirit in prodding them to believe, and thus blaspheme the Holy Spirit by putting his activity down to guilt feelings, etc.

Reference: Tektonics.org (I’m not endorsing any of this websites theological views, but only the explanation of the unpardonable sin in Mark 3:29)

#15

Not according to Jesus in Matthew 12:32. “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

Jesus means what he says and says what he means, Aug. :wink:

#16

Aaron37,
I conceed that point about the blasphemy of Jesus being forgiven in the next age to come. I read into that and retract it.

When you say someone falls away it’s impossible to bring them back to repentance, is this something God cannot accomplish or is it something he chooses not to accomplish.

Does God no longer love them the way a proigal father loves the son who knew him then left home (the thing you bellieve makes you anathema)?

Does God still love the person but simply does not have it within his ability to break the person of their arrogance?

** ps. Aaron, this for me is the most troubling scripture concerning Universalism - However, the Bible is wide and vast and Universalism has little defects concerning the Love of God compared to the Gambling God of free will or the Tyrant of Calvinism **

#17

Whoops, then I guess the apostle Paul is doomed! :laughing:

#18

A selection from the unspoken sermon “It Shall Not Be Forgiven” by George MacDonald:

The rest of the essay is SO good. You have to read it for yourself: HERE!

#19

I didn’t say when someone falls away it’s IMPOSSIBLE to bring them back to repentance, God says this, Aug. You can harden your heart to the point of searing your conscience to the truth and renouncing Jesus as Lord and Savior to the point of no return.

This has nothing to do with God no longer loving them, but them renouncing Jesus as the only way to having a relationship with the Father. When you renounce Jesus…you renounce the Father.

God loves the whole world that he gave his only son, Aug, but God will not violate your will for you to receive and keep salvation.

This verse should give you and UR trouble because there is a sin that Jesus himself said “has never forgiveness”, Aug, this sin will not receive forgiveness in this world or the world to come.Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or “UNBELIEF”. Unpardonable means just that, Aug. Will you accept the words of Jesus, Aug? or will you call him a liar and believe the unpardonable sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or unbelief will be forgiven in this world or the world to come? ( the lie UR teaches)

#20

Hmm, if I correctly understand A37, then he interprets the Bible to teach that everybody with UNBELIEF is beyond forgiveness in this life and in the life to come.