The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Mark Driscoll

Of course Jason is right that we shouldn’t descend to vulgar name-calling in critiquing ‘Pastor Mark’. For me, it’s one of the toughest things about trying to be a Christian that we are commanded not to repay evil with evil, not to stoop to our enemies’ tactics. As an Englishman raised on and steeped in the satirical, often sarcastic, not to say sardonic humour of the likes of Peter Cook and the Monty Python team, I personally have to bite my tongue far harder and more often than I ought in these sorts of situation (and it’s quite painful, I can tell you).

I could probably agree with Jason that ‘Pastor Mark’ is a “teacher who contributes a lot of positive things, too” if I could be bothered to find out what those things were. And I certainly agree that we shouldn’t be provoked into offensive ad hominem responses by Driscoll’s rants.

But I’m sorry, the guy has really got under my skin! As Alex pointed out early in this thread, his (Driscoll’s) attempt at fire-fighting in his blog post was pretty mean-spirited towards Justin Brierley, who by all accounts is a thoroughly good, honest, polite Christian chap (as you’d expect from us limp wristed, effeminate Brits, ‘Pastor Mark’). It was also pompous (so he’s got a lovely shiny degree in communications from somewhere really important, has he?; gosh I’m really impressed!), self-serving and, in my opinion, bordering on dishonesty in its selective and subjective interpretation of the facts of what was said. (Which we can all judge for ourselves, as the whole interview is available as a podcast.)

But dishonest rhetoric seems to be a bit of a speciality of ‘Pastor Mark’. Consider his take on universalism, for example, which I quote verbatim from his published sermon on ‘limited unlimited atonement’ (my emphases):

Now either this gross misrepresentation is a sign of Driscoll’s laziness and ignorance, or it’s deliberate dishonesty designed to discredit an increasingly popular doctrine (UR) that threatens to undermine his own personal theology (and power and influence, but that’s another story). I leave you to make your own minds up … :confused:

And when it comes to peddling his personal brand of neo-Calvinism - as exemplified in the aforementioned sermon on ‘limited unlimited atonement’ (which is, as it sounds, oxymoronic nonsense, pure Calvinistic limited atonement in all but name) - his eisegesis, his utter mangling of scripture is breathtaking.

As I said in my earlier post, I’m going to start a proper thread on Driscoll’s theology soon, but in the meantime I’ll give you a short taster of what I mean. In preaching his ridiculous ‘limited unlimited atonement’ syncretism - which is basically some tosh about Jesus dying for *everybody’s *sins but only electing to save *some * of the people he died for - he adduces just two verses of scripture to ‘prove’ it is more Biblical than either orthodox Calvinism or Arminianism (or any other soteriology). And guess what those two verses are? Okay, I’ll tell you, because you won’t be able to. They are:

1 Timothy 4 v10: “That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, and especially of those who believe.”

2 Peter 2 v1: “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.”

Now I can just about follow how Driscoll twists the 1 Tim verse to support his specious argument. But the verse from 2 Peter? Huh? What on earth has *that *got to do with the scope or efficacy of the atonement?

I’m still angry!!!

Shalom

Johnny

PS Hi Pilgrim, love your avatar!

And another thing that I forgot to mention in my previous rant, sorry, carefully considered post …

This, ‘Pastor Mark’, is what is technically known as shooting yourself in the foot. Because what the hell does it matter what we say to people who are going to hell – truth, lies, whatever?

The god you believe in made his inscrutable mind up which of his creatures, which of the children made in his image, he was going to sentence to literal, conscious, eternal torment in hell an eon, sorry, an eternity before you or I or the world were born or even conceived, so it can’t make one whit of difference what you or I or anybody says one way or the other. To hell they must go!

And if by any chance any of these hellbound reprobates should dare to complain about the injustice of their eternal punishment for their earthly crimes – somebody really really evil and unChristian, say, like Richard Dawkins or, er, Gandhi, maybe – what should we do with them? I know, how about burning them at the stake?!

Harsh, I know, but seeing as how burning them alive is what god’s going to do to them forever and ever and ever after they peg it, surely we’d only be following his example by giving them a quick foretaste of what’s to come now?

I know, I know, no loving Christian would ever do something as cruel and heartless as that, you protest, Certainly not any of our greatest and most godly Christian theologians. Okay, there was that unfortunate episode of John Calvin having Servetus burnt at the stake, but, you will say, that was just the way some people solved their differences in those days, and we’ve moved on since then. Well, *most *of us have, ‘Pastor Mark’ …

Preach it, brother :smiley:

And here’s me, thinking Driscoll was an amazing trumpet player. :laughing: Shows my age, as well as my disconnectedness from the popular world of the big-time preachers, I guess. (Er, that’s what he is, I take it?) :unamused:

I personally find Driscoll’s (I refuse to call him “Pastor” Mark) theology about gender the most damning. His treatment of Justin’s wife’s ability to preach was as low as a man can push himself to be.

As an American male who has chest hair (which is a prerequisite for manliness), I am profoundly saddened and infuriated by of Driscoll’s comments. But I’ll see him in heaven (hopeful) so I can’t get too mad.

Disposable,

As an American male who has chest hair (which is a prerequisite for manliness)

Ahhh, but do you have a beard? :wink:

Also, I agree with what you said. I sometimes worry Driscoll’s obsession with gender and “masculinity” is going to eventually land him in Steven Anderson or Fred Phelps territory.

In fact I do have a beard. How could any man NOT have a beard? :mrgreen:

:laughing:

I also disagree with Driscoll when he says:

"]Some of you, God hates you. Some of you, God is sick of you. God is frustrated with you. God is wearied by you. God has suffered long enough with you. He doesn’t think you’re cute. He doesn’t think it’s funny. He doesn’t think your excuse is meritous [sic]. He doesn’t care if you compare yourself to someone worse than you. He hates them too. God hates, right now, personally, objectively hates some of you.

Heh, like I was saying about Fred Phelps territory…

Also, Disposable, truly, your manliness is awe-inspiring (I sport a mere goatee/mustache combination). :mrgreen:

And for some reason I’m reminded of this:

smbc-comics.com/?id=2392

"]Some of you, God hates you. Some of you, God is sick of you. God is frustrated with you. God is wearied by you. God has suffered long enough with you. He doesn’t think you’re cute. He doesn’t think it’s funny. He doesn’t think your excuse is meritous [sic]. He doesn’t care if you compare yourself to someone worse than you. He hates them too. God hates, right now, personally, objectively hates some of you.

Alex, you’re going to have to stop posting these nuggets from the collected wit and wisdom of ‘Pastor Mark’ Driscoll (although I’d guess it’s a pretty short book anyhow) before I blow a gasket. :smiley:

It’s not so much his deliberate tone of provocation and aggression which bugs me (although it does), it’s the twisting of scripture, the eisegesis, the 180 degree inversion of Jesus’ teachings, the bizarre calling of white black. And you can just see his adoring hordes of young, macho converts (are women allowed in Mars Hill, or do they have to sit in the basement, or in a separate hut somewhere maybe?) lapping it all up and regurgitating it in their homes and workplaces.

Disposable - welcome to the board, by the way! - it’s nice to be reminded that ‘Pastor Mark’ (am I laying on the sarcasm heavily enough with the quotes, do you think? :smiley: ) doesn’t speak for American men in general. And bless you for your tolerance, you’re a salutory reminder and a correction to me.

I have actually gone back and edited the conclusion to my previous post, as I realise now that it had descended into an uncharitable invective against Calvinism in general, rather than a reasoned response to Driscoll’s theology. I apologise if I have offended any good, honest Calvinists.

I am tempted to delete the whole post, but I think that would be dishonest of me, as I personally find the hyper-Calvinist doctrine of double predestination deeply offensive. And the point about Calvin and Servetus, while doubtless a total yawnfest to most Calvinists, who are probably sick to death of being reminded about it, is that it does illustrate a very serious theological point - which is that we tend to reflect the god we believe in.

Calvin believed in a god who burns unrepentant sinners. So he burnt one. ‘Pastor Mark’ believes in a god who hates people - ‘personally and objectively’. Where, I wonder, will that lead him …?

Still angry, but calming down a bit now.

Shalom

Johnny (beardless, goatee-less, unmoustachioed, and definitely no Esau but with a moderate amount of chest hair :smiley: )

Well, as someone with a full beard (including sideburns), moustache, and chest hair, who punches people with three-foot spikes of steel, and who plays games like this or like this rather than weak, wimpy chess, I’m clearly more masculine and more intelligent than Mark Driscoll.

Therefore I am right. :sunglasses:

(Or, possibly, might doesn’t make right after all…)

Jason, i can only salute your geekdom! :ugeek:
:laughing:

“Some of you, God hates you. Some of you, God is sick of you. God is frustrated with you. God is wearied by you. God has suffered long enough with you. He doesn’t think you’re cute. He doesn’t think it’s funny. He doesn’t think your excuse is meritous [sic]. He doesn’t care if you compare yourself to someone worse than you. He hates them too. God hates, right now, personally, objectively hates some of you.”

o.O

Only, in Driscoll’s theology, he cannot know FOR CERTAIN who God hates. For all he knows, this could apply to him. So I do wonder if this is him acting out of his own insecurity or just delusion. I love false dichotomies. :laughing:

Also, hating objectively (which I think God is certainly capable of feeling/doing but doesn’t) is not something God paints for us in Scripture. Quite the contrary. The Atonement itself kinda pimp slaps this mentality in the face.

I keep forgetting people actually think this. This is so going in the show bible. :wink:

–DS

I’m kinda in confusion with the whole hate thing myself. The Bible does state that God hates X, Y, and Z. But Paul also states that everyone screwed up and there is no partiality. So, like, it would make sense for God to hate everyone equally.

What do you think of An article on the Hebrew idiom “I love X but hate Y”?

Heard of it before, actually, but wasn’t sure if it applied to Hebrew, as well.

sigh

Languages, languages…

I just got into it with a friend on facebook about Driscoll. He’s a hebrew roots guy so I just gave him that link about love/hate, hopefully it will help. I normally don’t “debate” on facebook, but he keeps mentioning Driscoll, and this guy disgusts me. I hadn’t really heard much about him before you guys posting on him in here, thanks a lot :laughing:

OK, I can’t believe I’m going to do this, but here goes. I know nothing about Mark Driscoll. What I heard here sounded terrible. When I read the comments on the linked article about his interview on “Unbelievable” I was infuriated with him. I read them to my wife and she said, “He’s a jerk!” With that said I went and listened to the entire 1 hour interview and though I disagree with his position, I thought he actually did pretty well within the context of the discussion. It did seem that the interviewer was trying to only get at controversial issues and that started to irritate Driscoll. He was trying to talk about their book, but the interviewer was trying to pick out nuggets of controversy in it, even if they were minor parts of the book. I have no problem with that, but if you are going to interview in a more adversarial way, then you need to be prepared for the responses. When I read the excerpts it seemed as if Driscoll was being a bully, but its not true, he was trying to be fair and honest about his book and beliefs and he answered many of the questions quite well, though I am hesitant to say that. Again, I am not in agreement with him on many things, but I recommend you listen to the whole interview because you will feel differently that just reading the excerpts. I still think Driscoll said some stupid things and disagree with them, but it wasn’t as bad as it looked in the excerpts.

One thing that irked Driscoll centered around a question about sex. The interviewer said that in his book he counsels couples and says its OK to have anal sex. He then implied that having such a position could be interpreted as giving in to the porn world view of sex by thinking that they need things like that to have a good sex life. He criticized Driscoll by saying that he was giving in to porn in this way. When Driscoll explained it, that wasn’t the case at all. It wasn’t even a main topic of the book but a small section where Driscoll talks about answering hard questions from young couples. His response was, I thought, very wise and very biblical. He wasn’t promoting anal sex, he just said that the bible doesn’t forbid it so he can’t go any further than the bible does in forbidding things. He did say that people need to follow biblical principles where the bible doesn’t speak, and go with their conscience. He said that the sexual activity shouldn’t be enslaving to either partner, demeaning to either parter (if either feels demeaned or enslaved, its wrong), and he said more about it but I can’t remember. Anyhow, it was a minor part and his answer was fair. He wasn’t promoting porn or anal sex. It was in this context that Driscoll began to see the interviewer as being his adversary and it began to irritate him. Anyhow, listen to the whole interview. I’m not saying you’ll end up liking Driscoll, but its not as bad as it sounds.

One more thing, even in the context of marriage and believing that the woman is to submit to the husband, Driscoll said that the woman has the right to not submit to the husband if he is being unloving or a jerk. He said that the husband has to fulfill his role of “loving his wife in a way that Christ loved the church and died for her”. He wasn’t just a “the woman must submit no matter what” kind of guy. At least in this interview he wasn’t. He said that the man isn’t the ultimate authority. He must submit to his pastor and leaders and to the governing authorities and if he is not doing those things or if he is trying to get his wife to submit in a way that harms her or puts her in danger, or against God in some way then she has the duty NOT to submit. He said he is very different with women in his communication than he is with young men.

Chris,
That’s pretty much exactly what I thought when I listened to it. :sunglasses:

Sonia

Are you guys just bored? Why do we care about Mark Driscoll?