The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 25 - 10 Virgins, Talents & Sheep vs. Goats

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

I am struggling to see a loving, gracious God in these parables.

The 5 foolish virgins were shut out and told “I don’t know you.”

The man with the 1 talent was called a worthless slave. He was thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Those labeled goats are told ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels". They will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus seems to be teaching that there are dire and eternal consequences for choices we make. There does not seem to be any hint of grace.

I really appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks,
Joel

#2

Hi Joel

The Parable of the Talents – can be seen as an invitation to change; to repent of our false images of God as tyrant. See -

webcache.googleusercontent.com/s … per28a.htm

Bernard Brandon Scott, Hear then the Parable, ch. 9, pp. 219ff.

***For the parable of the Talents he offers two interesting points, I think. (1) It’s most likely that Jesus’ original audience would have initially identified most strongly with the third servant. The average peasant did not look kindly on wealthy people who multiplied their wealth ‘without sowing,’ i.e., without honest labor. The prudent and just thing to do with one’s wealth was precisely to bury it. Jesus’ audience would have favored the actions of the third servant. Thus, Jesus’ conclusion to this story would have been a shocker. (2) So the original point of Jesus’ parable may have been to shock the audience into questioning the nature of the master:

A hearer is asked to choose between two competing images of the master: the explicit image put forward in the aphorism by the third servant, and the image implied in the actions of the first two servants. Is the master the hardhearted man of the third servants attack, or is he gracious and generous, as he was toward the first two servants? (p. 234)***

James Alison, Raising Abel, pp. 153-154. Alison suggests that the judgment in these parables happens according the imagination of the person judged. He says:

Exactly the same thing happens in the parable of the talents, where Matthew and Luke coincide more exactly. The problem of the servant who received one talent and went and buried it is not its lack of yield, but how he imagined that his master would treat him: ‘Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed: and I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo there thou hast that is thine.’ In this case it is Luke who makes the situation more explicit; this, I think, because the manoeuver is less common in his Gospel, while for Matthew it is typical of his way of speaking. In Luke the master says: ’ Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant…’ And that is exactly what happens. Once again it is the subject’s imagination of his master that is absolutely determinant of his behavior. One who imagines his master as free, audacious, generous, and so on, takes risks, and himself enters into a fruitfulness that is ever richer and more effervescently creative; while one whose imagination is bound by the supposed hardness of the master lives in function of that binding of the imagination, and remains tied, hand and foot, in a continuous, and may be even an eternal, frustration.

As for Alison’s speculations about ‘even an eternal frustration here’ - I will add that he is a hopeful universalist and is concerned that if the outcome is to certina the journey will not seem to be worth making (but he is a universalist)

#3

The Foolish virgins – are those who are complacent. We have to remember who Jesus is addressing here – it is a first century Jewish audience, a lot of whom are expecting Judgment that will be judgement against the Gentiles consummated in a massacre of the Gentiles at the messianic banquet; the people who are the original foolish virgins are actually zealots who cannot understand God’s peace an universal grace. In this light the parable can actually be seen as a warning today to all of those who revel in fantasies of apocalyptic violence – these beget violence and darkness. But we know that Jesus was cast out into the outer darkness of human violence and when risen pronounced ‘Peace’ – so we have good grounds for hope.
The Parable of the Sheep and Goats must be one of the most comment on parables on this thread – do a search and you will find a lot of good stuff.
:slight_smile:

#4

Oh dear - I’ve just lost a post. It was a sermon i’d found but feared that it was rather long. :blush:

#5

A final resource –for Raymond Schwager’s ‘Jesus and the drama of salvation:

***In the Parable of the Royal Wedding Feast the guilty one keeps silent; Jesus himself is silent before his judges. The unmerciful creditor is given over to the torturers, as is Jesus (scourging, crown of thorns). The man without a garment in the royal wedding feast is cast into the outer darkness, as is the worthless servant in the parable of the talents. On the cross Jesus found himself in outer darkness abandoned by God. IN the parable of the sheep and goats, the Son of Man addresses the goats as ‘cursed’. Jesus himself is condemned as a blasphemer and becomes a curse for us.
The many close parallels between the parables of judgement and the passion narrative cannot be accidental. So the parable of judgement also strongly point to the one who is to be judged on the cross with all victims of sin. The first act of separation of the just from the rejected is overturned again as the judge steps in on the side of the rejected.

For as long as people are trapped in sin they can perceive only from the perspective of their own closed worlds and God must necessarily appear to them as an alien and hostile power. Only after genuine conversion does their capacity to see things alter and thus also their picture of God. When we have ears to hear, now he no longer appears as the angry one, but can show himself as he is, the one who is kind above all others.***

Hope this helps Joel :slight_smile:

#6

Joel,

Yes actually we have a lot of commentary on the Sheep and Goats; I myself make it one of my unexpected arguments in favor of Christian universalism, and as it’s the capstone parable of the trilogy (all of whom are directed against lazy and/or uncharitable servants of Christ) its proper interpretation reflects back on the others. I’ll try to find links to detailed arguments I’ve made, but the quickest “thick” argument I’ve made might be here at the end of my introductory argument for this radio debate.

The short argument is to ask, how should we interpret the fate of the baby-goats in the judgment? They’re about to be hungry now, and thirsty, and dirty and sick and excluded and imprisoned. The Good Shepherd blessed the mature flock for acting to help people in the position that the baby-goats are about to be put into; the baby-goats are being punished by Christ for not helping such people as they themselves are being revealed to be. So what should we expect the Good Shepherd and the mature flock to be doing now in regard to those baby-goats? And is our expectation what the baby-goats would expect about the least of Christ’s flock if they were interpreting the parable?! The context of the parable sets up a Synoptic riddle to reveal the reader (or Christ’s original audience of apostles and disciples) to be one of the mature flock or one of the baby-goats. (And in this context we would then have light to ask how “eonian” and “kolasis” ought to be interpreted for the phrase usually translated “eternal punishment”.)

Kenneth Bailey (a longtime evangelist for Near Middle Eastern regions, although I don’t know that he’s a universalist himself) reveals that the phraseology of the talant/mina parable was (and still is) a common method of flattery in the Near Middle East: specifically, describing someone in authority as a bandit chief! That’s the lazy servant’s excuse for his behavior; and it gets him zorched. Any interpretation of his zorching that amounts to Christ being compared favorably to a bandit-chief however ends up putting us in the place of the punished servant! That’s especially true of the final parable about the Good Shepherd, too, because over in GosJohn (in an earlier scene) Christ contrasted Himself to the rebel/thief who only comes to steal, kill and sacrifice the sheep. Any interpretation of the sheep/goat judgment that results in the Herdsman killing and sacrificing His own flock (and the baby-goats are explicitly described as being part of His flock), is tantamount to trying to flatter Christ as a bandit-chief!

We may also ask what exactly the minas or (here in GosMatt) the talantons are supposed to represent. What are we supposed to be doing while Christ is away? Matthew ends his Gospel by telling us: we’re supposed to be using our skills to go out and make new disciples, baptizing them. That isn’t only about gaining followers for Christ, as though He’s merely a king; that’s about cooperating with Christ in helping save sinners from sin! (We may only baptize with water, but Christ baptizes with Holy Spirit even fire!–which is a good and saving thing!) The lazy servant is punished for the same reason the baby-goats are punished, for not bothering to try to help save from sin those who are themselves being punished for their sins in various ways. The servant excuses his refusal to help save other people from sin on the ground that he understands his King to be something like a cruel bandit-chieftain himself. But if we interpret the fate of the punished servant as being hopeless we’re revealing ourselves to be that sort of servant, too!

Meanwhile, although it’s true that the groomsman is harsh toward His foolish servants in the first parable, that’s only for the night of the honeymoon. He would be a fool not to go out and bring them in the following morning, especially since they are portrayed as being rather helpless women whose main crime is being a bit scatterbrained. In the context of Christ’s first hearers, they would certainly deserve to spend the night outside, but for the groomsman to simply disavow such helpless (though incompetent) servants would bring much dishonor upon himself: these aren’t traitors or other criminals. Anyway the subsequent two parables (and especially the sheep/goat judgment) warn us in the strongest terms not to regard the foolish virgins as being hopelessly punished.

Hope that was helpful! The third parable at least is explicitly about Christ being merciful (including to those suffering stereotypical punishments for their sins) and therefore being angry at those who refuse to be merciful to such people, the result being their put in the place of such people themselves. And keeping in mind what our primary duty is as servants of Christ, that parable is definitely about charity to sinners and so being punished for being uncharitable to sinners.

In that light, the lights of the lamps of the bridesmaids take on a related light as well! :laughing:

#7

This is very helpful.

Thanks to all of you.

I am very grateful for this community.

I am currently studying Matthew. My previous thread was about the parable of the marriage feast. I am trying to unlearn some theology that was pounded into my head since childhood while trying to know more about my savior.

Thank you for your patience with my questions and your wisdom on these topics.

#8

Good stuff here guys :slight_smile: I’ve always wrestled with parables like these too, so being able to look at them differently is encouraging. :slight_smile:

And I think you’re on to something, Jason… just thinking on the Gospels, it seemed that one of Jesus’ main priorities was to get people to really think about and reexamine their beliefs and their attitudes, especially their beliefs and attitudes about God and about other people… so it wouldn’t be surprising if many, if not all, of the parables that Jesus told were in fact like mirrors being held up, or like Rorschach tests, to challenge and even turn upside down the listener’s assumptions and preconceptions, and in turn be drawn into asking questions and wrestling with God until the lights came on and there was revelation of truth that sets free.

Sound about right? :wink:

#9

Also, one can believe in Jesus without thinking that every word written about him in the New Testament is literally true.

#10

Matt, yep!

Chris, true–the sheep (or mature flock) themselves are surprised to discover they’ve been serving Jesus at all, much moreso that He accepts them as faithful followers!–but one ought to believe as much as is reasonably and morally probable (or certain), yes? :slight_smile:

#11

Hi Joel,
I tend to understand those passages as meant to affirm moral life principles, not meant to teach about the eternal destiny of anyone.

The parable of the 10 virgins speaks to me of the importance of personal diligence, planning, and preparation. There are many good things that God would do in and through our lives if we’ll be diligent to prepare, whether that education, eating right, working hard, planning, or the spiritual disciplines. If we live foolishly, not planning for the future, then we might miss out on much of the good that God wants to bring in our lives.

Concerning the parable of the talents, it shows me both the importance of personal diligence (not being lazy) and the importance of having right beliefs concerning the nature of God. The 1-talent man was paralyzed by fear, thinking that the master was harsh and evil, when all along master was kind and gracious. And the 1-talent man was selfish, lazy, and did not want to take personal responsibility. Because of these, he would come to a place of terrible regret and anger at himself, missing out on the goodness that God wanted to bring in his life.

And to me the passage about the separation of the Kids from the Flock (aka sheep and goats) “IF” interpreted concerning personal responsibility speaks to me of the importance of social maturity. Those of us who are socially mature, see and meet the needs of others almost unconsciously will be rewarded/blessed by God. Those of us who are socially immature, so self-consumed that we do not even see, much less meet, the needs of others, well, God will chastize us to grow us up!

However, “IF” one interprets it as God judging nations, and how they treat the poor and disinfranchised among them, and possibly how they treat the Jews and Christians, then God either blesses or chastizes nations based on their treatment of these groups. It could also be a statement against social systems that oppress the poor and disinfranchised of society.

Sadly, misinterpreting as Jesus separating the saved from the unsaved completely nullifies the power of these passages to call us to repentance and the Jesus Life! If the person is saved then he has no worries, except for others. And if the person is an unbeliever, he doesn’t care what they say anyhow.

Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, within reach! Jesus calls us to repent from our selfishness and lazyness, to be diligent to do good and give our lives in service of others. And what we sow we shall reap, if not from others, from God!

#12

Great thoughts, Sherman. I especially like what you said about the one talent servant being afraid because he didn’t understand what his master was really like. Excellent point. :slight_smile:

To what everyone else has said, I’d like to also point out that if the Sheep and the Kids is interpreted as it traditionally has been, it causes a lot of problems with the salvation by grace alone doctrine. Why are the sheep accepted? Because of their good deeds? Whoa! It says nothing about their relationship with Jesus. And likewise the kid goats are rejected because they have failed to do good deeds, not because they’ve rejected Christ. So typically the very people who would refer to this parable as “proof” of never-ending hell will also find their views of salvation by grace alone negated by it.

Personally, I’m with Jason and Sherman et al. I say it has nothing to do with proving eternal perdition. It’s about being kind to one another.

#13

I think a lot of what Jesus taught was about the Kingdom being here & now - in the present. So much focus gets put on the afterlife that this moment is lost.