The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?


Yes, my above actions for consequences… was back-to-front. Certainly that general principle of consequences for actions runs far and wide BUT in terms of biblical Israel THEY were being held accountable for distorting and even covering the light of God’s goodness that He had mandated they shine as a called people to minister as lights to the world wherein God placed them — thus Jesus and his disciples became ‘the light of the world’ as per the texts I know you know.

Israel had religionised the blessing of God and became insular and introspective losing sight of the horizon they were called to minister to. As a result that adulterous generation (not race) as Jesus called them, would suffer great loss with the final fall of the old covenant régime in AD70… hence the call to repentance, i.e., stop trusting in Moses for now the full light has come in Christ — believe HIS words! E.g., Lk 13:3-5.

Actually, Jesus’ message WAS specific and pertinent the His people at that time… you pointing to other generalised scenarios doesn’t negate nor nullify the reality of Jesus’ words to his own specific audience — IF they did not listen and in consequence repent of their sins they would perish!


Just a footnote on Wiki. And what DaveB is saying. BOTH Wiki and DaveB, need to footnote any claim…since Wiki can be edited by anyone.


I’ll try to remember RKOG - but why? I didn’t quote anyone.


Jesus’ message is universal and applies to all mankind. Sin causes death and if we don’t heed God’s word we perish. I don’t see that this has changed.


I’m not sure what I quoted, that made you think of me…Perhaps to footnote your references and statements?.. And perhaps to reflect, on thoughts of the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4)?

If folks would focus on solid theology - like this… then they would be too frightened to promote, “offbeat” theologies here! :wink:


Oh groan… so you literally are a universalist, even to the degree you can’t perceive distinctions…

Mt 17:27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”

Is this how you pay taxes?



But you and most evangelicals put constraining boundaries on “what Jesus’ message was.” Death was death then and it is the same thing to us 2000 years later. YOU DIE.

Death is Death. Pure and simple. So now how do you explain perish beyond BEING DEAD?

Please don’t say going to hell or purgatory…


My view: we will all be resurrected bodily, stand before the judgment seat of our Lord Jesus, and then be ushered into life everlasting, in whatever direction He knows is best for us individually. This is known as hope. It is, I believe, also everywhere taught in that Old book.
That’s my view, anyway.


How does that happen? Here on earth? In some sort of heaven? When?

And I would appreciate any now a day references to such happening?


When Jesus returns at His second coming.


It’s been believed for 2000 years, been written about in thousands of commentaries, in other words you can find it yourself, just as I did. The problem is that whatever is said, you and I differ in our approach to understanding the Scripture.
Okay, Dave, once again you are dodging my “simple” question.
Wrong. You know that if I turn you to 1 Cor 15, or any others that treat of this, we will end up right here.
Read TW’s book on the resurrection, then we’ll palaver.
Hey, if you don’t have the same view, that is your choice.
Still love ya, bro.


This is Paidion responding to Chad’s “questions”.

Or before that occurs, perhaps in Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4) Chad?


I’ve wondered about the implications of such a doctrine. Billions of people have lived and died, and more are coming. Jesus, having a body, would only be able to meet people face to face, one person at a time. Is there a super long line people have to wait on before they meet Jesus face to face?


Yes it is a very long line, but there will be refreshments and old National Geographic magazines to read, just like in my Dentist’s office.
Seriously, I have no idea what the logistics are going to be. Way above my pay grade. :grin:


It’s probably a logical thing for a futurist to ponder, but the fulfilled view understands 2 things here…

  1. the judgment made was relative to rewards given, NOT eternal destinies as per typical evangelicalism, and…
  2. there wouldn’t have been any exhausting crowd that couldn’t have been managed as this judgment was also pertinent ONLY to those of that age — that age has passed.

Of course, that doesn’t preclude some semblance of judgment working for each individual as we die… BUT that is not generally the assumed concept of that particular verse in question.


Yes sir, and you (and those who believe the same) will I say believe it forever more. But, you continue to ignore the seriousness and the immediacy of the scriptures. As it applied to the ‘there and then.’

So ten thousand years later you (and those who follow your thinking) will be still waiting and wondering… All the while the very verbiage of the text is saying it has happened.

Yep but Perriman says it in a quite interesting way:

"How am I saved from my sins?

The narrative-historical argument about salvation is, first, that Jesus died for the sins of Israel, and secondly, that his death abrogated the Law that for centuries had reserved membership of the people of God for circumcised descendants of Abraham and their families, plus a few proselytes. Jews who believed in Jesus were saved from the destruction that was coming on second temple Judaism; Gentiles were saved from a wicked, Godless, and obsolescent paganism. Both groups now had a share or inheritance in the life of the age that would come, when Jesus would be revealed to the nations.

My answer to the question, therefore, is that because Jesus died for the sins of Israel, I am free to become part of the redeemed and transformed historical people of God. Because of Jesus’ faithfulness to the point of death on a Roman cross, God is prepared to forgive my sins and give me his Holy Spirit if I too make the confession that Jesus is Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father, sovereign over history.

So the key to my “salvation”, I think, is the connection between Jesus’ obedience to the Father in his mission to Israel, which resulted in his death, and the Father’s willingness to forgive the sins of those who believe in his Son in the context of the whole prophetic-apocalyptic narrative—not because of anything that they have done to merit it but because of what Jesus did.

I like it. :smiley:


I have to say that Perriman is for me a stepping stone (and a very healthy and important side study) to the integral understanding of God as proposed by the Presence folks.

Just a observation.



MM, Perriman is an annihilationist.


Says who?


I once looked into his soteriology. He’s definitely not a universalist.