The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?


#61

Stop right there. You are disparaging the guy. Show me your paper as to your belief. The guy has killer posts,

Post your stuff man. You want us to hear you then post some stuff worth reading.
:roll_eyes:


#62

Perriman:
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In John’s symbolic vision of the new heavens and new earth it appears that the unrighteous, those whose names are not written in the book of life, “the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars”, are explicitly excluded from the restored cosmos. This may raise numerous other questions about the “ethics” of final judgment, but it is difficult to reconcile with the “beautiful heresy” of universalism.
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#63

Davo, THEY were not the ONLY generation to be held accountable for distorting the word of God. They too suffered the same fate for disobedience.

People no longer religionized the blessing of God after Jesus? And were they not held accountable?

MM, yes, we all die eventually. However, when speaking of death, I believe the writers of the Bible are often referring to a barren wasteland unfit for habitation.


#64

BTW even though Perriman isn’t a universalist, I’m still a fan. I just wish he was a universalist.

IMO origen is conflating the kingdom and heaven.


#65

Can you quote me from this thread where you get that idea? I.E. where I’ve posted anything implying that to enter the “kingdom of the heavens” means to go to heaven?

Of course if one enters the “kingdom of America” such a person may be entering “America” so “America” & the “kingdom of America” (nation of America) are one & the same. Who would think by “entering the kingdom of America” you were entering a “reign of America”? There is a Greek word for “kingdom” & a separate Greek word for “reign”. If God meant “reign” why would He say “kingdom”?

Is entering the “kingdom of the heavens” equal to entering “heaven”? Or is it referring to a kingdom that is heavenly in some way, such as the millennial kingdom of Christ on earth?


#66

I got this today, from the Patheos evangelical newsletter. Since we have some “unusual” theologies here, this might fit into this thread:


#67

Yes, that is correct, Death as my understanding in the Genesis God/Adam dialog meant being away from God or as you say, a wasteland. A place where God was not very happy. Adam’s ‘death’ was not physical but spiritual. But it had physical ramifications.
We are told that in essence man would need to toil… Bad ass word when it comes from the creator God. :wink:

Adam lived to be what 900+ years old. Gotta say God loved the dude.

Not sure I dealt with your post but have to say that I do not believe in such a thing as a barren wasteland. As a believer in the historical view of scripture, God has done all through the Christ to assure us all (after the fact) that we are well taken care of in the view of the Father. And all of the OT in my view points to that.

I would conjecture that most of the barren wasteland verbiage (?) has to do with the Jews and the destruction of the Temple. But without actual verses, it is hard to say. If you are insinuating to make a case for some sort of destruction / place of correction post mortem then I’ll differ with you.

Just a thought.


#68

Lancia already explained that the kingdom isn’t heaven.


#69

My question wasn’t about anything to do with Lancia but where you got the following idea in the quote below from anything I’ve said in this thread about the “kingdom of the heavens” (Mt.7:21):


#70

@origen you seem to think not entering the kingdom is equivalent to not being saved. Getting into heaven is equivalent to being saved. So if you think entering the kingdom means being saved, logically you would think entering the kingdom and going to heaven are the same. If A = B and B = C then A = C.


#71

The kingdom of God is the rule of God hence the reign of God… the 3 terms are interrelated off the one base word <βασιλεύς,ω> basileus,ō


#72

To follow that logic, if it requires getting “into heaven” (whatever that is supposed to mean), to be “saved”, then are these who “reign upon the earth” not saved:

Rev.5:10 and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Christians are saved from being “sons of disobedience”, “children of wrath” (Eph.2:1-4) and the “wrath of God”. To have an “inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God” is to be saved from “the wrath of God” coming to those “sons of disobedience” (Eph.5:3-10). Not to reign & or serve & everyone is saved no matter how wickedly they live. Paul says to not let yourself be deceived by such empty words, e.g. antinomianism:

Eph.2: 1 And you, being dead in your trespasses and sins— 2 in which once you walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom we all also once lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of its thoughts; and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 made us alive with Christ even we being dead in trespasses—by grace you are saved—

1 Cor.6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph.5: 3 But let sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness not even be named among you, as also is proper to saints, 4 and filthiness, and foolish talking, or crude joking, which are not fitting, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For this you know, realizing that any fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light— 9 for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth— 10 discerning what is well-pleasing to the Lord.

As to the many & various references to “kingdom”, “kingdom of the heavens”, “kingdom of God”, “kingdom of Christ”, etc, in the Scriptures, one should not conflate them all as having the same meaning. Or even necessarily conflate identical terms (e.g. “kingdom of the heavens”) as having the same meaning in all their various contexts:

“Generally speaking, premillenarians recognize a difference between the present form of the kingdom and the future millennial form of the kingdom. The precise character of the kingdom in the present age as well as the precise character of the kingdom in the millennial period, however, is still subject to various definitions.”

“…As previously indicated, the expression kingdom of heaven is confined to Matthew’s Gospel. To be sure, the expression heavenly kingdom is found in 2 Timothy 4:18, but there is no contextual evidence that this is an identical expression. Daniel also makes the statement that the “God of heaven” will “set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” (Dan 2:44; confirmed in the prophecy of Dan 7:13-14, 27.) For all practical purposes, however, Matthew’s use of the term kingdom of heaven is the only important use of this expression.”

“Ten major features of the kingdom are revealed in the Gospel of Matthew: (1) pronounced at hand (3:2 ; 4:17 ; 10:7 ); (2) possession and blessing in the kingdom of heaven promised to the righteous (5:3, 10, 19-20 ; 7:21 ) ; (3) Gentiles will be in the kingdom of heaven (8:11 ); (4) kingdom of heaven is composed of both saved and those merely professing faith, the latter to be later cast out (13:24-30, 36-43, 47-51 ; 22:1-14 ; 25:1-10 ); (5) kingdom of heaven subject to rapid growth (13:31-32 ); (6) “birds,” symbolic of Satan, lodge in its branches (13:31-32 ); (7) kingdom of heaven has leaven, symbolic of bad doctrine, externalism, unbelief, worldliness, (13:33-35 ); (8) kingdom of heaven difficult to enter (19:23 ; 23:13 ); (9) some of the features of the kingdom of heaven designated “mysteries” (13:11 ); (10) kingdom of heaven likened unto children (19:14 ).”

“The problem arises, however, in that certain features are mentioned of the kingdom of heaven which seem to contradict statements in some passages relating to the kingdom of God. This has led some to the conclusion that at least in some passages the expression should not be taken as completely identical.” https://bible.org/article/kingdom-heaven


#73

Almost unanimously Bible versions render “kingdom” as “kingdom” & “reign” as “reign”. If God meant “reign” in Matthew 7:21 He could have said “reign” instead of “kingdom”.

Moreover IMO the context of the chapters 5-7 sermon is repeatedly distinguishing the saved from the unsaved. That is the context re the meaning of entering the “kingdom of the heavens” (Mt.7:21).

Matthew 5-7 is not about everyone being saved no matter how wickedly they live or how evil their perverted heart of unbelief is while teaching some of these all saved enter into some sort of a service & reign, i.e. the “kingdom of the heavens”.


#74

I can only present to you what the Greek actually says… as opposed to your claims about the same — what you do with that information is up to you.


#75

And why not? Matthew, Paul and John do. Take Paul here for example…

Eph 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Cf. Rom 15:16, 19; Rev 11:15; 22:1

Note the joint singularity of the kingdom above… can this legitimately be ignored?

The claim is made that… “certain features are mentioned of the kingdom of heaven which seem to contradict statements in some passages relating to the kingdom of God” — and yet apart from this arbitrary claim no examples are provided demonstrating such to be the case… thus the claim remains unproven.

Not only that however but Matthew himself debunks the whole FALSE notion right here where he himself DOES IN FACT conflate the two terms DEMONSTRATING their identical use and understanding…

Mt 19:23-24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

It is indeed a bit “rich” that Premillennials know this text above but dishonestly go quiet on it as it TOTALLY annihilates their false bifurcation of ‘the kingdom of Heaven / God’ — AND in consequence all their doctrines that errantly flow from this invention.


#76

MM, I agree. However, God also made man with a renewable spirit.

Man was actually created to work and be fruitful.

There are hundreds of verses that speak of this very thing.
Ex. Jer. 49:33 “Hazor will become a haunt of jackals, a desolation forever. No one will reside there. No man will dwell there.”
Jer. 9:11 “And I will make Jerusalem a heap of rubble, a haunt for jackals, and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without inhabitant.”

This applies to all who fail to follow the Spirit of God. Ex. Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah, Babylon etc.etc.

Go to an inner city infested with gangs, drugs, etc…etc. and you will see an example of a barren wasteland.

Here, I agree with you. I don’t know what happens when we actually die and neither does anyone else. I don’t believe it’s what the writers of the Bible are talking about.


#77

@Origen
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To follow that logic, if it requires getting “into heaven” (whatever that is supposed to mean), to be “saved”, then are these who “reign upon the earth” not saved:
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I think everyone who enters the kingdom is saved, but not all who are saved enter the kingdom.


#78

@Origen
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As to the many & various references to “kingdom”, “kingdom of the heavens”, “kingdom of God”, “kingdom of Christ”, etc, in the Scriptures, one should not conflate them all as having the same meaning.
///

Matthew and Mark contain practically identical verses about the kingdom, the only bring Mark calls it the kingdom of heaven/heavens, Matthew calls it the kingdom of God. That’s because Matthew wrote his gospel for a Jewish audience, and so as a matter of propriety tried to minimize use of the term God. Even today Jews will write “G-d” instead of fully spelling out God.


#79

Origen, if you still think the kingdom and heaven are same thing, I suggest you reread lancia’s post. He does a good job explaining that the kingdom is about THIS life, not postmortem.


#80

However, the non-denominational site Got Questions, appears to agree with Origen:

But the Eastern Orthodox perspective, appears to probably agree with Lancia (I haven’t read his post in full, to be honest).