The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#170

Yes indeed.

In terms of the forthcoming destruction on Jerusalem of old, yes — there was a 40yr transitional period AD30—70 where the two existed side-by-side (Mt 13:30) but in the end-of-the-age the old was fully done away… seen literally in the lake of fire — the very thing Jerusalem and in particular the Temple became as it was razed in a blaze, molten of flames; like the Cross it is literal history which wrought great spiritual significance.

Not in so many literal words BUT certainly in the words pictures of Jesus’ “gehenna” — I agree with Paidion that gehenna and the lake of fire are one and the same (albeit Paidion views its application as different, though both entities as one and the same nonetheless).

These were emblematic of the co-exiting respective covenants of that era, old and new, as per Paul…

Gal 4:24-26 …which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

#171

I agree.

Romans 9:29 says, "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have resembled Gomorrah."

Deut. 29:23 “The whole land is brimstone, salt and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim which the Lord overthrew in His anger and His wrath.”

2 Peter 2:6-9 “If He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness among the eight, if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what comes on the ungodly, and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was oppressed with the filthy conduct of the wicked, then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.”

The “old” covenant as in the Levitical/ Jewish Law was a false covenant. The “new” covenant has ALWAYS existed alongside false prophets, false covenants, foreign gods, etc.,etc, and STILL does.

#172

Okay Davo. I’m going to look more into this. I’m holding that the destruction of the temple closed the covenant. Those in the lake of fire were destroyed forever. Is that correct? We now live in the reconciled era. God is the savior of all. Especially them that believe. This is referring to post 70 AD. Those that were destroyed in the lake of fire are gone. Is that right?

#173

Yes… all things related that OC age — temple / priesthood / sacrifices / service etc, etc. They were all denuded of any redemptive worth at the Cross BUT still maintained sway UNTIL being finally removed as per AD70 (Heb 8:13 et al).

Not quite. From the pantelist perspective (not necessarily prêterist) annihilation means nothing more than cessation of the physical being, and does not translate into any consequence beyond the grave as per the likes of standard postmortem annihilationism. IOW… “destroyed forever” just means physically dead, though carries the connotation that such death was likely the result of judgement, e.g., AD70. Warnings were duly given to avoid these perilous times but if they didn’t heed such and so repent they would perish and many as history records did.

Well really, from AD30 forward through 70 and beyond.

Only in the sense that all who died in the conflagrations of those days have long since perished, having then passed through death’s veil stepping into God’s greater domain… something that awaits each of us in our turn.

#174

Perhaps this may help. It comes from today’s Patheos, Evangelical newsletter! :wink:

#175

davo,

Been reading your articles on the site. Good stuff. I need to go over some of this. It’s new to me but makes sense.

1 Like
#177

davo,

Do you think it’s possible that the lake of fire is eternal since the context changes from the earthly Gehenna (still in existence today) to a heavenly new Jerusalem? You yourself said that this is symbolic. It describes eternal realities and is therefore symbolic. Those that were judged in 70 AD had rejected the God Christ and therefore committed the eternal sin. As a result they are forever in punishment. Judgment Day is over and God has reconciled all to Himself This describes the reality in which we now liveGod is the savior of all - especially them that believe. Post 70 A.D. we are all in a state of righteousness before God. Those with faith are sanctified but all are justified because of the faith and obedience of Christ and the ending of the old covenant after Judgment Day.

The new heavens and earth is the new Jerusalem. This is a different context than the earthly Jerusalem and earthly Gehenna. They are still here today. All things in the new Jerusalem are made new. The lake of fire isn’t included in the ALL THINGS RECONCILED.

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The word BUT separates from all things made new. Excluding those in the lake of fire from all things.

#178

:grin:

#179

I don’t know that there remains a literal refuge tip smoldering in the Valley of Hinnom beyond Jerusalem’s walls… somehow doubt it, but no… Jesus’ ‘gehenna’ was an object lesson — putting in figurative language that which was real to them, showing that if they didn’t pull their heads in (with regards to Rome) they would become in-kind the same, i.e., a smoldering heap of refuge full of worms, gnashing of teeth in out darkness — the rubble and ruin of exclusion, etc.

Symbolic yes, eternal as you’re using it, no. Besides, I said “spiritual” NOT eternal. You seem to be thinking of eternal in terms of longevity, whereas I tend to see it more in terms of TOTALITY or fullness, i.e., qualitative more than quantitative — “you shall have LIFE and have it to the FULL” and also Jn 17:3.

Those who rejected Christ did so in ignorance (Lk 23:23; 1Cor 2:8; 1Tim 1:13) and although most paying the temporal price and consequence (note: not temporary) of AD70 did so as part of those who were temporarily hardened, i.e., Paul’s “in part” (Rom 11:7, 25) — thus having “their part in” the lake of fire (Rev 21:8). Those hardened ones were vessels chosen by God (Rom 9:18, 21-22) to be part of His greater redemptive plan for Israel (that’s a big thought when you really consider it)… a plan that ultimately in Christ and His chosen firstfruits saints wrought the reconciliation of all.

Thus through the Parousia even these hardened ones came to know, i.e., realise, the forgiveness they had in ignorance spurned in life, even though it had ALWAYS been there.

Yep!

The New Jerusalem is the NEW Covenant come down out of heaven from God (notice the similarity wherein the old covenant likewise came down out of heaven from God). Thus the lake of fire was part of and pertinent only to THAT OC AGE… therefore, it carries no continuing presence thereafter, having fulfilled its role and function. Nothing of the OC age was to survive into the NC age, i.e., Peter’s designated ‘age of righteousness.’

The word BUT appears nowhere in the Greek text. IF in the Christ’s Parousia the LAST enemy to be destroyed be DEATH (1Cor 15:26) THEN these other reprobates or enemies prove to be the hardened ones of that transitional period AD30-70, and NOT persons postmortem and or post parousia thereafter.

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#180

:+1:

#181

I don’t know that there remains a literal refuge tip smoldering in the Valley of Hinnom beyond Jerusalem’s walls… somehow doubt it, but no… Jesus’ ‘ gehenna ’ was an object lesson — putting in figurative language that which was real to them, showing that if they didn’t pull their heads in ( with regards to Rome ) they would become in-kind the same, i.e., a smoldering heap of refuge full of worms, gnashing of teeth in out darkness — the rubble and ruin of exclusion, etc.

John Loftus in his book “Why I Became An Atheist” talks of Gehenna:

By contrast , hell (Greek: Gehenna) is a valley outside Jerusalem where the rubbish was burned. I actually visited this place in 1988 and rubbish was still burned there. page 448

Gehenna is a real place outside Jerusalem and is still there. This is a completely different context than the figurative new Jerusalem and figurative lake of fire.

Those who rejected Christ did so in ignorance ( Lk 23:23; 1Cor 2:8; 1Tim 1:13 ) and although most paying the temporal price and consequence ( note: not temporary ) of AD70 did so as part of those who were temporarily hardened, i.e., Paul’s “ in part ” ( Rom 11:7, 25 ) — thus having “ their part in ” the lake of fire ( Rev 21:8 ).

The ignorance here isn’t the kind you are trying to refer to. They had rejected the infinite God-man. This is a sin like no other seeing who God is. All other sins are finite but this is the eternal sin done out a hardened heart towards God.

**Ephesians 4:18~~They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

#182

Most “figures” are based on “real things” — the figure simply carries an applied meaning USUALLY implied by that very thing… in this case, Jerusalem was to become like the burning heap just outside its walls.

#183

[Origen: "There is a Greek word for “kingdom” & a separate Greek word for “reign”. If God meant “reign” why would He say “kingdom”?

But Jesus spoke Aramaic and in Aramaic the word for “kingdom” (malcut) also means “realm.”

#184

I disagree.
Yes, the “old” covenant did come down out of heaven from God as you say. However, it was NOT the Levitical/ Jewish law. It was what we refer to as the “new” covenant. As 1 Cor. 10:2-4 says, " All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST."

Yes, there is a continuing presence of false teachers, false religions, false gods, sin, etc. etc. and judgments(reaping what we sow) STILL occur as a result.

#185

Of course…

#186

But we also have TRUE teachers…like the visionaries seeing the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

#187

Davo,

I’m not convinced that the lake of fire is Gehenna. I also see a distinction between ALL HUMANITY and those outside the gates of the new heavens and earth.

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Those outside the gates are zombies because they have committed the eternal sin by rejecting Christ with hardened hearts. Post 70 A.D. all are justified and reconciled to God (God is the savior of all. Especially them that believe) But those outside the gates of the new Jerusalem aren’t part of that. The kingdom in now but it’s also in the afterlife.

#188

Randy, please don’t tell anyone who stumbles upon this site that you have all truth. :laughing:

BTW Merry Christmas Randy, hope that the holiday season see’s you well.:grinning:

#189

No, I don’t Chad. Just the “truth” regarding zombies. And I wish you - and everyone here - a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Perhaps I can combine Christmas greetings and zombies - in one song! :slight_smile::

#191

Yes, of course I disagree with you.

What you say doesn’t even match up with the realities of history. Did everyone continue to follow Jesus’ teachings after 70 AD? NO. In fact, many returned to the same old ways.

The temple/priesthood/ sacrifices/service did not disappear as you claim here. They came back into power in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, following the same pattern as that of the Jews.
Building costly temples(cathedrals) to themselves.
Clothing themselves in fancy robes, “taking the best seats in the house”.
Proclaiming their word to be the infallible truth, and anyone who dared to disagree was a heretic sentenced to death.
Declaring food laws.
Paying priests for the pardon of sins.
The list goes on.

These are the very things that Jesus spoke against.