The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?


#141

I DID already by giving you the very words of Jesus… yet you simply dismiss His word. Even verses 30-31 goes on to prove there was no room for repentance via Hades — believe Jesus for He in turn dismisses your PU!!

Lk 16:30-31 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

CLEARLY the rich man UNDERSTOOD repentance and yet did he? — NO… preferring that for others!

You still haven’t answered this — which verse/s from Lk 16 says this?


#142

The timing of it certainly suggests the LOF was AD 70. Peter’s ‘elements melting with fervent heat’ was the law.


#143

There was fire in Hades and fire in Gehenna and fire at Sodom. The phrase LAKE FIRE SULFUR is in the context of the new Jerusalem. Nowhere is it called Gehenna. It’s a different context. There was fire in Gehenna just as there was fire in hades. But the Bible is clear that Gehenna was a valley located outside the EARTHLY Jerusalem. Fire in the Lake of fire is the Greek PUR which is where we get the word purify from. Moreover, the context is the new heavenly Jerusalem. This signals a figure. Earthly realities are used to describe heavenly realities in the Bible by way of figure of speech. The word PUR in HELPS word study:

4442 pyr - fire. In scripture, fire is often used figuratively - like with the “fire of God” which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself.

The Greek word for sulfur is theion and is defined as divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease. The Jewish culture used sulfur in purification rites.

brimstone

  1. divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

Lakes were used for baptism in the Bible. Just as we are crucified with Christ, die to self and resurrected to new life those in the lake of fire are baptized in fire as they undergo destruction and resurrection.


#144

I gave the primary definition or better the actual definition. The other “definitions” you quoted above are not definitions but presumptions by the lexicographer in attempting to apply the definition figuratively.

Of course, I also have presumed to apply the definition figuratively as being the correction of those in the Lake of Fire.


#145

My post #136, which you’ve ignored (also post #'s 137 & 139), explained how Luke 16:26 is perfectly harmonious with purgatorial universalism (PUR). It’s a long post, not a “simple dismissal”. What’s “simple” here is your repeated appeal to one out of context verse & then declaring boldly with capital letters, but without any explanation whatsoever, that the verse has somehow refuted PUR. It reminds me of the M.O. of several annihilationists on another forum. After the verses they’ve posted are explained they ignore my explanations & post the same verses again repeatedly. I have to wonder if they’re brainwashed & can’t think for themselves. Who are they trying to convince? Themselves? No objective intelligent observer is going to believe them while they ignore responses that refute their claims. They’re intellectually dishonest. Likewise with you in this thread. Best to avoid explaining why you think Lk.16:26 refutes PUR as it will just expose your position further. Furthermore, I doubt that you’ve even thought it through yourself.

Where does anything in Lk.16:30-31 say, imply, or suggest that there’s “no room for repentance via Hades”. In those verses their discussion topic isn’t even talking about life in Hades, but life in the world of the living, i.e. before people have died. And no one has said there is “repentance via Hades” as if a place can bring repentance. Nothing in Luke 16:19-31 denies that those in Hades’ can repent.

The account of Luke 16:19-31 may only be describing the rich man’s first few minutes in Hades after dieing. Why should we expect him to have come to the full knowledge of the truth, confession of all his sins & a deep understanding of why he needs to repent in such a short time? Though if Jesus is giving an accurate & truthful account of life post-mortem, it does clearly oppose the ideas of (1) UUism, (2) no post-mortem torments for anyone & (3) that all who die will immediately see Jesus, have genuine deep repentance & true saving faith in Him as per your opinion which is essentially the same as (1) & (2).


#146

The rich man in Hades showed remorse as he begged for mercy. Hence he was being corrected. If he had a hardened heart and wasn’t being corrected he would have showed hatred towards God with no begging for mercy. In Hades the gulf is fixed but death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire where the gates are forever open. No fixed gulf.


#147

Origen:
///
For it is clear that if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments He would have thought it “important enough” to include many times as a warning in the 27 books of the inspired NT Scriptures
///

I don’t think the LOF is about endless torment. I think it was about the end of the Law, documented in the work of Josephus. A LOF that corrects or a LOF that endlessly torments on an individual level are not the only two options. I can make an argument from silence right back at you: If the LOF corrected people, that fact would have been important enough to inform people. Again, the evidence for the LOF “correcting” people is zero.


#148

AND that passage neither says, implies nor suggests that those in Hades’ CAN repent… you’re simply adding to the words of Jesus your own invented PU scenario.

THAT’S just it Origen… Jesus wasn’t! And BECAUSE He wasn’t is another reason why a sword is put right through your juvenile PU doctrine. Jesus was recounting local legend, i.e., popularly known Greek myth regarding ‘hades’ and applying a few lessons from it to their own given situation, that being, the ultimate futility of social injustice and the reality that they won’t be convinced otherwise… NOT even if one should rise from the dead.

THUS with this parable having NOTHING to do with literal postmortem destinies or realities YOUR false PU claims to postmortem repentance in hades become null and void and shown to be the nonsense you’ve been demonstrating with you all your shotgun-spread-it-everywhere posts.


#149

And this is the level of junior-grade rationality that dialoguing with you guys makes so exacerbating… you come out with crap like this above to justify what you call exegeses. It’s like trying to argue “catastrophy” means “feline disaster” because “catastrophy” starts with the letters CAT — unbelievable!! Try this…

Purify: Middle English purifien, from Old French purifier, from Latin pūrificāresorry, no Greek PUR.

Remorse is not repentance. It is possible that remorse may lead to repentance, but that is no guarantee of it and certainly remorse is no indicator that anyone has been corrected. Furthermore… the tale of Lk 16 shows repentance to be pertinent to the ones antemortem NOT the one postmortem — PU really does have the cart before the horse.

As to the possibility of postmortem repentance I HAVE indeed argued elsewhere on this forum FOR such, and yet even this in pathetic petulance was rejected because I don’t advocate sadistic flames… go figure!


#150

Can you elaborate on this?


#151

Sure…

There is a grief or regretfulness that can lead forward into repentance and life; there is a grief or regretfulness that leaves one wallowing in death.

2Cor 7:9-10 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.


#152

Anytime someone begs for God’s mercy it shows repentance. Only those with hardened hearts hate and blaspheme God after the fires of wrath burn them:

Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. ~~ Rev. 16:9

The rich man in hades was begging for mercy not blaspheming and hating God showing his heart had softened in repentance.

There is zero evidence that Gehenna is the LAKE OF FIRE AND SULPHUR. Nowhere is the lake called Gehenna in the Bible.


#153

Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.


#154

The text says nothing about begging for God’s mercy. Anytime someone asks God to have mercy on them they have repented.


#155

Neither does Lk16… the original basis of the arguments above.


#156

The rich man begs for mercy

And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame


#157

AND was his plea dutifully heeded and he mercifully alayed of his anguish of flame… what saith the Scripture? :thinking:


#158

The scripture says those with hardened hearts hate and blaspheme God and won’t repent after the flame of wrath:

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. ~~ Rev. 16:9

The rich man in hades was begging for mercy not blaspheming and hating God showing his heart had softened in repentance.

There is zero evidence that Gehenna is the LAKE OF FIRE AND SULPHUR. Nowhere is the lake called Gehenna in the Bible. Gehenna was outside the earthly Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is a completely different context.


#159

Did you ever hear that catchphrase from that kids movie ‘TOY STORY’… “it’s a toy!” — well this is similar with Jesus’ presentation of Lk 16… IT’S A STORY!


#160

A story in which the rich man begs for mercy showing that his heart had softened in the flame. His heart wasn’t hardened anymore. This is the result of a hardened heart:

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. ~~ Rev. 16:9