Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?

[davo]

I’m not convinced that the lake of fire is Gehenna.

That’s ok I am… but it’s fine we can hold different views on this.

I also see a distinction between ALL HUMANITY and those outside the gates of the new heavens and earth.

I do too… there is however no more “those outside the gates” as THAT applied to unbelieving Israel of the transitional period — THAT’S predominately what the Book of Revelation is about… the era of covenantal change and in particular the close of that epoch.

Those outside the gates are zombies because they have committed the eternal sin by rejecting Christ with hardened hearts.

You may want to take that view up further with Randy as it’s nowhere near what I advocate and way more in line with his beliefs.

But those outside the gates of the new Jerusalem aren’t part of that.

Again these were they who suffered either death or deportation (2Thess1:9) because they clung to the OC mode of existence — a goodly portion of these being believers who fell away to perdition (2Thess 2:3; Heb 10:39; 2Pet 2:20; Jude 1:12) and were as good as twice dead (second death).

[davo]

Nothing of the OC age was to survive into the NC age, i.e., Peter’s designated ‘ age of righteousness. ’

What you say doesn’t even match up with the realities of history. Did everyone continue to follow Jesus’ teachings after 70 AD? NO. In fact, many returned to the same old ways.

Some believe the bible and walk in faith… others trust in their own sight.

Yes… all things related that OC age — temple / priesthood / sacrifices / service etc, etc. They were all denuded of any redemptive worth at the Cross BUT still maintained sway UNTIL being finally removed as per AD70

The temple/priesthood/ sacrifices/service did not disappear as you claim here.

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read Josephus’… I’m inclined to trust his history more than your opinion.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

These are the very things that Jesus spoke against.

And what is your interpretation of this verse, LLC? (i.e. NKJV Mathew 16)

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah,for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not [a]prevail against it.

What is the rock in Matthew 16:18?

On this Rock I will build my church - Questions & Answers

Eastern Orthodox Interpretation of Peter the Rock

Whether we agree with the Roman Catholic position (i.e. Peter as the rock)…or the Eastern Orthodox and Protestant position (Peter’s faith as a rock).

Christ did intend to build a church. So, LLC. Do you agree with this? And if so, what should the church teach…outside of the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)?

[davo]

there is however no more “ those outside the gates ”

How can you be sure of that?

Because it refers to a long past event, situation and scenario, i.e., the AD30—70 change of covenants with particular reference to the latter portion thereof; at least that’s the pantelist position. I have answered this more extensively HERE.

[LLC]

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read Josephus’… I’m inclined to trust his history more than your opinion

Sorry Davo, but it’s a fact that the Jewish faith STILL exists today.

Christ did intend to build a church. So, LLC. Do you agree with this?

HF, As Matt. 7:24 says “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.”
Matt. 7:27 “And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.”

Because it refers to a long past event, situation and scenario, i.e., the AD30—70 change of covenants

There was no change in covenants. As Genesis 17:7 says, “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT to be God to you and your descendants after you.” The “new” covenant was given to Abraham. Many in AD30-70 just saw the falseness in the covenant they were following.

[davo]

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read Josephus’… I’m inclined to trust his history more than your opinion

Sorry Davo, but it’s a fact that the Jewish faith STILL exists today.

Biblical Judaism as practiced in the 1st century in Temple worship and sacrifice is loooong dead and gone — FACT! Their house (temple) was left desolate… don’t trust Jesus? then read Josephus!

There was no change in covenants.

WRONG!!

Jer 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read the Prophets and Apostles… I’m inclined to trust their prophesied and recorded history more than your opinion.

The “new” covenant was given to Abraham.

Chapter and verse might be interesting??

[hollytree]

Just read this book on the exegetical defense of purgatory. Many scriptures seem to teach it. It’s one possible interpretation anyway. I’m forced to it though because of all the diversity we find in the world today and because of the fact that I think only Satan and his angels can commit the eternal sin and those judged in 70 A.D. who existed at the time of Christ. They, Satan and his angels are punished forever and ever. While sinners today go to eternal destruction they don’t stay there. The author shows the lake of fire and purgatory are in the same location. “Under the earth”. Every knee will bow in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

The Biblical Basis For Purgatory

Those at the time of Christ along with Satan and his angels committed the eternal sin ~~ The crucifixion of Christ.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I’ve read your words on this and I’ve read the Prophets and Apostles… I’m inclined to trust their prophesied and recorded history more than your opinion

Of course, it’s also good to know…what

Patristics

has to say:

[maintenanceman]

LLC:

There was no change in covenants.

I’ll chime in on that. So LLC, how many of the Laws put forth in Leviticus and Deuteronomy do you actually follow? All? Some? Pick and choose? The New covenant of Christ opened the door for humanity (and we will have to designate the ‘nations’) to have a dialog with it’s creator. Apart from the law, the law that man could not keep. Pure and simple.

[LLC]

The “new” covenant was given to Abraham.

Chapter and verse might be interesting??

The covenant God made with Abraham was NOT the Levitical law. Chapter and verse might be interesting?

Jer 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

And what covenant did God make with the fathers in the day He brought them out of the land of Egypt?
According to Jeremiah and all the other prophets, God never commanded all that is written in the Levitical law.
Jer. 7:22 'For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt I did not speak to them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
1 Sam.15:22
Psalm 40:6
Psalm 51:16
Isaiah 1:11-14
Hosea 6:6
Isaiah 58:5
In fact, they repeatedly tell us what God requires.
" Is this not the fast I have chosen to break the chains of wickedness, to untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and tear off every yoke?Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and to bring to your house the poor who are cast out. When you see the naked that you cover him and not hide yourself from your own flesh? "
“If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul then your light will shine in the darkness.”
"Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord and I will cause you to ride the high hills of the earth and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father."

Biblical Judaism as practiced in the 1st century in Temple worship and sacrifice is loooong dead and gone —

The Jewish faith still exists today. Temple worship is not long dead and gone as you claim. It comes in many forms. To me, the battle over the Temple Mount is an example. And from what understand, many are talking about building another temple.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

. And from what understand, many are talking about building another temple.

It’s true. I have the banner picture right here!

And I have a picture, of one of the founders!

And let’s inject a little lightness, from today’s Sunil Bali Blog. Perhaps if LLC (and some other’s here), followed this turkey preparation advice…their theologies might become, a bit more sound.

Boss: Do you believe in the afterlife?

Employee: No I don’t, because there’s no proof.

Boss: So if I could prove to you that there is life after death, would you believe in the afterlife?

Employee: If you could prove it 100%, then I would believe in life after death.

Boss: OK. Here’s the proof. After you left early yesterday to go to your Uncle’s funeral, he came here looking for you to go and play golf.

[davo]

The covenant God made with Abraham was NOT the Levitical law.

Derrr… I never said it was. You however make this bold claim…

There was no change in covenants.

You then even reproduce this, BUT then summarily ignored the FACT that it debunks your claim…

Jer 31:31-32 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

God’s NEW covenant by its very nature was TO REPLACE that which He had previously established prior to the new, i.e., logic! And WHY was that? Well, note the latter portion of the verse above with regards to the FORMER covenant… “My covenant which they broke.” — pretty clear, obvious and in need of no twisting — He would bring in the new BECAUSE they had trashed the old.

Biblical Judaism as practiced in the 1st century in Temple worship and sacrifice is loooong dead and gone —

The Jewish faith still exists today. Temple worship is not long dead and gone as you claim. It comes in many forms.

Well LLC… the form I referred to, of which you ducked and weaved therefrom, was the form centred around SACRIFICE… animal sacrifice — you have documentary proof of this regular occurrence today in the Temple of Jerusalem as the key part of their Hebraic religion as once practiced ???

Your original claim and latest objection are shown to be inaccurate and unsustainable.

[LLC]

God’s NEW covenant by its very nature was TO REPLACE that which He had previously established prior to the new, i.e., logic! And WHY was that? Well, note the latter portion of the verse above with regards to the FORMER covenant… “ My covenant which they broke. ” — pretty clear, obvious and in need of no twisting — He would bring in the new BECAUSE they had trashed the old.

God doesn’t change His Law or covenant because mankind refuses to obey. They were established from the foundations of the earth and we either walk accordingly or we fall. When the Israelites broke the Ten Commandments and worshipped the golden calf, God didn’t say, “Oh well I guess I’ll change My words because they’ve been trashed.” Sorry, but things don’t work that way. As Mark 12:9 says “What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.” The covenant is what it is and is everlasting, as Genesis 17:7 says.

Well LLC… the form I referred to, of which you ducked and weaved therefrom , was the form centred around SACRIFICE… animal sacrifice — you have documentary proof of this regular occurrence today in the Temple of Jerusalem as the key part of their Hebraic religion as once practiced ???

Animal sacrifices weren’t the only problems with the Levitical law. There were other man-made additions that were contrary to God as well. It was basically a system built on man’s desire for power, control and wealth.

[davo]

There was no change in covenants.

In light of this text below (one amongst others) where is the textual evidence for your continual claim above?

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[LLC]

light of this text below ( one amongst others ) where is the textual evidence for your continual claim above?

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Davo, the covenant may have been “new” to the people who had been raised according to a different belief or another faith and were hearing it for the first time; but it was not new to those who had kept it from the beginning.

Deut.4:13 "He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, He commanded you to
follow, which He wrote on two tablets of stone."
Exodus 34:28 “He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."
Deut.9:15 “And the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands.”
1 Kings 8:9 "There was NOTHING in the ark except the to stone tablets that Moses had placed in it at Horeb, where the Lord had made a covenant with the Israelites after they had come out of the land of Egypt.”

This covenant was made with the Israelites in the day of the assembly, and they all heard it.

1 Cor. 10:24 “They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.”

Sorry, but Abraham was NOT the father of the Levitical law/Jewish faith. He was the father of the Christian faith.
Deut. 3:29 “For the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob is the place of His inheritance.”
Verse 12 “The Lord alone led him and there was no foreign god with him.”

Deut. 12:12 "and the Levite who is within your gate, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you."

Hebrew 7:11 "Therefore , if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood, what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizidek. Verse 16 “who has come, not according to the law of fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.”

[maintenanceman]

Davo, the covenant may have been “new” to the people who had been raised according to a different belief or another faith and were hearing it for the first time; but it was not new to those who had kept it from the beginning.

Are you saying that the OC was the same as the NC?

[davo]

light of this text below ( one amongst others ) where is the textual evidence for your continual claim above?

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Davo, the covenant may have been “new” to the people…

LLC… there was NO “may have been” about it at all — Christ wrought a totally NEW COVENANT in His blood (Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 2:20), much superior to all other covenants (note the plural, i.e., Rom 9:4) BECAUSE contrary to your errant claim that… “There was no change in covenants” the writer of Hebrews further says this…

Heb 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— Cf. Rom 7:10; 1Cor 13:10

LLC your… “There was no change in covenants” mantra is simply shown to NOT be the case.

Deut.4:13 "He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, He commanded you to follow, which He wrote on two tablets of stone."

Well, let’s check that dirty little thing called context…

Deut 4:13-14 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.

Sorry, but Abraham was NOT the father of the Levitical law/Jewish faith.

This is getting beyond bizarre… will you please provide a quote from anyone here who has made the claim that Abraham WAS the father of the Levitical law/Jewish faith?

Hebrew 7:11 "Therefore , if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood, what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizidek. Verse 16 “who has come, not according to the law of fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.”

Well, would you look at that… another case where a TEXT gets lost from the CONTEXT to push an errant PRETEXT. Consider the following verse you conveniently omit…

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

LAW/COVENANT — CHANGE!!

There was no change in covenants.

FALSE!!

This is WHY Paul wrote the following…

Gal 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

[LLC]

Christ wrought a totally NEW COVENANT in His blood ( Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 2:20 ), much superior to all other covenants ( note the plural, i.e., Rom 9:4 )

Davo, you say the new covenant is superior to all other covenants(plural). However, you point to Hebrews which mentions a first (singular), which means there was only one(singular) covenant prior to the second.

Well, let’s check that dirty little thing called context

Yes, let’s.

1 Kings 8:9 "There was NOTHING in the ark except the two stone tablets that Moses had placed in it at Horeb, where the Lord had made a covenant with the Israelites after they had come out of the land of Egypt.”

They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ .”

There was no change in covenants.

FALSE!!

As Hebrews 5:6and 10 say Jesus was a priest “according to the order of Melchizedek” whose priesthood was everlasting. The Levitical law was a false teaching, and as Deut.12:12 says “the Levite who is within your gate has no portion or inheritance with you.”

Gal 4:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Was Abraham justified by faith in the Holy Spirit or by the Levitical law?

Are you saying that the OC was the same as the NC?

MM, yes. The OC that God made with Abraham was the NC, not the Levitical law.

[LLC]

maintenanceman:

Are you saying that the OC was the same as the NC?

MM, yes. The OC that God made with Abraham was the NC, not the Levitical law.

MM, as an added note, I believe that the Levitical law was the tree that bears no fruit ( the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), the tree that needed to be cut down, the branch that needed to be pruned. Those who followed it were the prodigal sons who went away from Abraham, “the father of all who believe.”

[davo]

Christ wrought a totally NEW COVENANT in His blood ( Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 2:20 ), much superior to all other covenants ( note the plural, i.e., Rom 9:4 )

Davo, you say the new covenant is superior to all other covenants(plural).

Yeah, I had these inspired words in mind…

Heb 7:22 …by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Heb 12:24 …to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

However, you point to Hebrews which mentions a first (singular), which means there was only one(singular) covenant prior to the second.

Well yeah, typically in logic a second necessitates being preceded by a first…

There’s probably a smidgen of a chance you don’t appreciate (let alone see) God cuts a number of differing covenants in the OT, BUT in terms of biblical redemption it always boils down to TWO (Jn 1:17)… of which Jesus Christ wrought a totally NEW COVENANT in His blood ( Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 2:20 ), much superior to any and all preceding covenants.

The Levitical law was a false teaching, and as Deut.12:12 says “the Levite who is within your gate has no portion or inheritance with you.”

This is a prime example of your deliberate, i.e., NOT innocent nor ignorant, falsifying and debasing Scripture so as to create and peddle your own falsehood… shame on you LLC!

ANYTHING related to the old covenant, of which the Levitical system was a part, was TEMPORARY as per Gal 3:23-25 and not false as you wrongly claim — it was part of that which fulfilled a divine purpose.

AND the WHOLE reason the Levites had no portion in Israel was NOT that they peddled false teaching BUT because THEY were especially apportioned TO Yahweh BY Yahweh Himself, i.e., the Lord was THEIR portion and thus they carried no earthly heritage.

Num 3:12 “Now behold, I Myself have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the children of Israel. Therefore the Levites shall be Mine.

Deut 10:8-9 At that time the Lord separated the tribe of Levi to bear the ark of the covenant of the Lord, to stand before the Lord to minister to Him and to bless in His name, to this day. Therefore Levi has no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; the Lord is his inheritance, just as the Lord your God promised him.)