The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Maybe Simon and Garfunkel are right ...

Theology General Theology
#1

Ever since AllanS mentioned it in Matt’s recent thread about being labelled a heretic, I have been pondering what is, I think, a pretty profound statement on the human condition.

Indeed, “a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”. And this seems to be especially true in matters of theology and doctrine – *even more especially *in the doctrine of ECT.

Personally I am 100% convinced of the truth of UR. I simply cannot see how others cannot see that truth – in the Bible, in their heads, and in their hearts. (And as I’ve said before, I can’t see how I didn’t see it sooner!)

For the ‘sola scriptura’ adherents, the evidence is overwhelming. Sure, there are individual proof-texts which seem to present a prima facie case against UR. But these are at the very least neutralised by the pro-UR proof-texts. So we must look to the Biblical meta-narrative, the ‘big picture’ of scripture. And that is undoubtedly one of triumph, of restoration, of ultimate reconciliation.

So what’s going on here? Why do so many people not see that truth? Personally, I am more and more of the opinion that it’s because they simply don’t *want *to. They don’t *want *UR to be true, because if it were, all those terrible evil people, all those folk who whooped it up all their earthly lives, all the riff-raff, will one day make it to heaven. And *they *– who led lives of self-denial, falling into sin occasionally or often and then beating themselves up for it – can’t bear that thought.

You can almost hear their minds ticking over: Me, who went to church every Sunday and tithed and prayed and read the Good Book and never got pissed or screwed around or salivated over Janet Jackson’s wardrobe malfunction – you mean a good person like *moi *is going to have to share heaven with John Lennon and Lenin and Adolf Hitler? You’re putting me on!

But then I ask myself, is that what I’m doing, hearing what I want to hear and disregarding the rest? Am I condemned to an endless regress of confusion?

And what do I know anyway, for I am just poor boy (though my story’s seldom told … :smiley: )?

Would be interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.

Shalom

Johnny

#2

Personally I’d say I’m as convinced as I can be about anything (e.g. that I exist, that Jesus exists, etc.), just so Keith DeRose (specialises in epistemology) doesn’t pull me up on it again :wink:

Yes, it is very puzzling to me too :confused:

:laughing: I think that about myself too!

I agree, although I think many of the anti-UR texts would be much less anti if translated correctly!

Maybe for some people, but not usually the brothers & sisters I talk to. Obviously it’s still possible that a little bit of this is happening subconsciously, but that’s really hard to tell!

Hopefully not brother.

No, I guarantee you’ll know the answers in less than 100 years :wink:

#3

Wow! That’s a big number! That must be almost as sure as 110%.
Honestly, I’m quite surprised. Isn’t it sensible to leave just a little room for the possibility of human error?
Serious question Johnny my friend: Are you 100% sure of the existence of God?

I’m not saying you’re wrong but what you’ve presented as a very bleak thought and an awful opinion of fellow christians.
Do you really think that most church folk actually desire their work colleagues to be burned alive incessantly?

P.S. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. They are interesting ideas. I don’t think I dare share most of mine.

P.P.S. “Janet Jackson”?!?! Surely not!![size=50]Now, Kate Silverton - that’s another matter![/size]

#4

Hi. I think “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest” is completely true. BUT, I don’t think MOST people WANT ECT to be true, but they DO want to be RIGHT. They want to believe that what they’ve been taught since a wee sprout is true, that they are in the right church, that they are God’s people. To question ECT is to question everything they base their entire existence on. And if the ECT God is true (to them), questioning is risking your eternity.

#5

The church is full of scared people, which is no surprise given the “gospel” they’ve heard. How many in the churches are there because they think God is beautiful? How many are there because they fear God is monstrous? These poor folk dare not doubt. It’s far too risky. Best to believe the worst… Then anything better will be a bonus.

#6

True that, Allen! I had a friend ask me if I “really wanted to live as if there were no Hell”. So telling. She stays on the “straight and narrow” out of fear of Hell, not love of Christ.

#7

i think you’re right, Johnny.
i think that for a variety of reasons, humans focus on the negative, and expect the negative…and in some cases go so far as to WANT the negative.
i think some of the reason for that is that life kicks us when we’re down, and so to protect ourselves as AllanS says above, we become pessimists…if the glass by some chance happens to be more full than we expected, it’s a bonus. if not, we at least aren’t disappointed again.

i think God wants to set us free from this and live life in a state of trust and expectation. sure, life can throw us curveballs, but God knows what to expect and will ALWAYS help us through.

but i think sometimes we get so used to the negative viewpoints we protect ourselves with that it is hard to truly trust God for good things. also, we might even become so embittered that we rejoice when those people over there that annoy us get their comeuppance. this isn’t a laudable thing, but i reckon it’s true of many people.

i think this is really what “sin” is. and i think this is what God wants to set us free from. in God there is no darkness…only light. God is love and does not truly “hate” as we do either. He hates the things that hurt us, that keep us from Him. this is a hate born of loving concern for our wellbeing and for our relationship with Him and each other.

hopefully as we come to realise this, no matter what viewpoint we think is true, we will be so full of trust in God and love for Him and for others, that the negativity that is sometimes part of our world view will fall away. we may not embrace labels such as “universalism” etc, but more importantly we leave these matters in God’s hands and trust that it’ll work out, as He is in control. we’ll also try to do what He asks of us in order to help in our small way.

this is why some ECT people are full of love and joy…because regardless of their opinion on an intellectual level, their heart is full of love and trust.
this is also why being a Universalist doesn’t necessarly make us loving or compassionate…it’s an intellectual position that can help, but it doesn’t fundamentally change us, necessarily. that sort of change only happens as we get closer to God.

i will say that universalism has helped me feel closer to God than i have for years, though…less afraid on behalf of other people than i was.

as a humourous example…i can see all this and know the truth of it, and rejoice that one day all will be saved, but i at this time am happy to consign to the fires of hell all estate agents :smiling_imp:

#8

Hi everybody

Thanks for the stimulating, and challenging, responses.

Alex - agree with pretty much everything you say, cheers. I agree that this Elder Son / Workers in the Vineyard ‘outrage’ at the ecumenicalism of UR heaven is probably subconscious in some Christians. But I have had conversations with a number of Christians who do consciously exhibit this trait - mainly online I admit (and as I’ve said before, there are some *strange *people online; present company excepted of course :smiley: ).

John, my mathematical friend, I knew you wouldn’t let me get away with sloppy use of statistics! :smiley:

Of course you’re right to call me on this. Of course I’m not 100% sure of the existence of God. (To be honest, sometimes I *seriously *doubt His existence - like yesterday, when I learnt that a close friend of a friend, young woman, daughter of a minister, with two toddler children, has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer. :frowning: )

Perhaps what I should say is that I am about 97% convinced that *if *God exists, *then *UR is true. (By which I mean I am as convinced of that belief as I am of any other belief I hold, as per Alex’'s comments, but being a fallible human being of course I must leave room for that small amount of doubt without which I would be either so arrogant as to make Piers Morgan look like a wallflower, or a monomaniac. :smiley: )

Being uncharacteristically serious now, John, I do have quite a bleak view and awful opinion of at least *some *of my fellow Christians. Thankfully I think that the number of Christians who actually desire other folk to be burned alive incessantly is very small (but definitely not zero). And to be fair, I don’t think I ever said that, or implied that, actually. What I said was that I thought a number - and by this I mean a reasonably sizeable minority - of Christians can’t bear the thought of one day sharing heaven with really ‘bad’ people - especially those who don’t repent before they die. I know, I’ve spoken to not a few (some even face-to-face :smiley: ).

And while they may not want these ‘others’ to make it to heaven one day, they may not necessarily have a hardline view of hell and its everlasting agonies. They may, for example, be annihilationists.

I am very Arminian in my view of Scripture. I believe we are fully responsible for our own choices - but importantly, according to the lights - be they genetic or environmental - that are given to us. And of course, only God knows what *they *are (hence why we shouldn’t rush to judge others. Although of course most of us do. I know I do.

Does that all make sense?

(And as for Kate Silverton! :open_mouth: )

James

I can only agree with all your thoughtful comments, with perhaps the followng exception.

I do see what you’re saying. But I don’t agree that EU is purely an intellectual position. It is partly, of course. But for me, it speaks so clearly to our hearts that it is almost *bound *to make us at least *more *loving and compassionate than we might otherwise have been - although not, of course, *as *loving and compassionate as we truly *ought *to be.

As for estate agents, well, they can go to hell, obviously. Along with the producers of Big Brother, or any reality TV show actually! :laughing: :laughing:

#9

Oi! i take exception to this! i am most definitely strange! :laughing:

actually, i do agree…it is more than just an intellectual position. my heart, for example, has always been universalist, even before my intellect realised that was an option. perhaps by saying so, i was trying to allow for other “schools” of thought, which…i really don’t have to do. i can be loving of people and respect their right to think differently, but that doesn’t mean i have to extend that respect to deliberately blind, oppressive, destructive and ultimately FALSE positions themselves. God doesn’t call us to intellectual positions, but to relationship. and this relationship can bypass our weird intellectual positions…that can happen for non-universalists, certainly, but those are intellectual positions, and they are at odds with a truly compassionate heart.

now i realise that sounds like i’m saying i’m all compassionate and have that sorted. i definitely do NOT. i am full of hate and negativity like everyone else. however, i think God, despite my proclivity to normal human negativity GAVE me a certain outlook at the core of my being which lent itself to Universal heart attitudes. i’m sure He’s given this to many others as well, regardless where they are on the belief spectrum. all i’m saying is that He, with very little input from me, has brought me to a place where my inner sense of rightness is no longer offended by my doctrine.

…for intellectual universalists, it’s quite possible that those people’s hearts haven’t caught up with their heads. it’s a strange old world and doubtless that happens from time to time.

yes, the big brother people are another vile thing. i suggest they aren’t really people and don’t actually exist. then we can conveniently have them annihilated at the very least :laughing:

#10

re Silverton and Jackson, didn’t Holly Vallance have a similar moment?

#11

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I wish! :smiley: Actually, if we’re talking Strictly, I *think *it was Chelsee Healey, she of the overly generous embonpoint … :smiley:

#12

i’m pretty sure Holly did too!

onoz, off to ECT i go for noticing…

:laughing:

#13

I’ve been so wrong about so much that I’m pretty sure that there are some things I’m still wrong about. I have been consigned to disobedience so that God can show me mercy.

#14

True. My bad- point taken.

I find that statement fascinating. I think that my own experience of childhood in and arminian church gave me a very bleak view of myself and all humanity. I hope that I’ve shaken most of that off, but having recently viewed evangelical churchdom as an “outsider” I am dismayed at the callousness and arrogance. In addition, having spent a year or two learning about American ‘fundamentalism’ first-hand thanks to another forum, I can only say that I have been literally shocked and disgusted as to what the life and message of Christ can be turned into. It’s been a real eye-opener. I tend to think that if I’d lived in America, I’d be an atheist by now.

#15

Hi John

Interesting point about our friends across the water. I think what Cindy has said on the marriage and divorce thread is very germane here:

It’s one of the great things about this site that we get to fellowship with Christians from other parts of the world, and that’s something I really value. Although I do thank the Lord we don’t have to put up with any fundamentalists telling us we’re all going to burn for eternity because we, for example, voted for a pro-choice political candidate, or - God forbid! - are gay. Is it a fruit or UR, I wonder, that people here are largely so tolerant of other’s views, even when they disagree with them?

Interesting too what you say about having a bleak view of yourself, but largely shaking it off. I have that view of myself still - not all the time, thankfully, but often. Mainly when I screw, and fail so miserably to live up to the pathetically low standards I set myself in my feeble attempts to follow Christ. :confused:

Shalom

Johnny