The Evangelical Universalist Forum

More Than One Age After The Present Age

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

The Bible seems to say that there will be death in the new heavens and earth. It’s not forever. Check this out:

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth…No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed. - Isaiah 65:20

When Revelation says there will be no more death in the new creation it speaking of spiritual death. Only the righteous will dwell there. There is clearly another age after the new creation/punishment age. It tells us this in scripture:

so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus - Ephesians 2:7

The scripture often contrasts the present age with the age to come. But this scripture goes further and says there are ages to come.

The Bible speaks of God as being a fire. The fires of God not only punish and condemn to extinction by turning the wicked to ash but they purify and correct also. The Lake Of Fire is where the wicked are destroyed and turned to ashes. This happens in the next age. It’s the second death of body and soul. From these ashes the fires of God create a new person that is free from sin in the age after the punishment age. For the LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and raises up. This is how He operates in the Bible. He desires the salvation of all. For God is the savior of all people. Especially of them that believe

#2

I don’t know that “ages to come” refers to more than one age. You might be right, but I wouldn’t on the face of that scripture anticipate that meaning. If that is so, then the statement, ‘no more death’ would be inaccurate. How could there be no more death if there was going to be a continual cycle of death and resurrection, akin to reincarnation? How many “ages” do you believe there are?

Steve

#3

I don’t know how many ages there are. Places in the New Testament contrast this age with the age to come. The above passage says ages to come. So, we know there is more than the New Heavens and Earth. The passage I quoted about there being death in the New Heavens and Earth shows that people die physically there. The redeemed in the new creation however have life and no more spiritual death. This is what Rev. means. There’s more than one kind of death in the Bible.

#4

The biblical ‘new creation’ speaks not of some coming future place but to an ever-present state or “stance” before God i.e., the new creation is NOT about the **re-**creation of tangible SUBstance as in terms of refreshed terra firma and adjoining celestial states.

“if any man be in Christ he is a new creation” MEANING if any man be in Christ he is new Israel. Israel was chosen to serve the world, she failed, but Jesus as true Israel did not fail. Those of the NT who responded to Israel’s call of covenant renewal [the gospel] joined Jesus as “the firstfruit saints” through whom Israel’s redemption would be secured and thus consequently the world’s reconciliation established.

IOW… Isaiah is using the *poetic licence *of a prophet to describe the wonders of the coming New Covenant age.
IMO… strict wooden literalism loses sight of the woods for the trees.

#5

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth…No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed. - Isaiah 65:20

The passage means what it means. The youth die at the age of a hundred. - Sorry.

#6

I wonder if there is some place between universalism and annihilationism??? There does appear to be death in the next age, but a continual endless cycle of death and rebirth suggests reincarnation, which is not taught in scripture (IMO). The *second death *may in fact represent this condition of deliberate and conscious suicide once sin is entered into after we have been reconciled. I still have not heard suitable answers on this subject.

What you have suggested as future “ages” (plural) is one possible explanation, but that sounds too much like StarTrek (IMO). I would think the plural is an emphasis on eternity - not that it represents more than one future age.

“We speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.” (1 Corinthians 2:7 NASB)

“to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things.” (Ephesians 3:9 NASB)

“the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make.” (Colossians 1:26 NASB)

The interpretation you seem to have adopted restricts the meaning of “ages” to a plural of future times. That is certainly not the case in all instances (if any).

Steve

#7

As I understand it… both Jesus’ and Paul’s “this age” spoke of the THEN old covenant age that was coming to an end Heb 8:13; 2Cor 3:11] with the “age/s to come” speaking of the burgeoning new covenant age.

#8

I agree, Michael, that there are ages (plural) to come.

However, I don’t think the new earth which Isaiah mentions is necessarily the next age, but may refer to a restored earth where righteousness dwells and where people live for a very long time before dying.

#9

What are these “ages (plural) to come”? Where are they spoken of in scripture? Is this the only reference/s?

Steve

#10

Offhand, I can think of “to the ages of the ages” in Revelation (commonly translated “forever and ever” – fallaciously, imo) – referring to the Lake of Fire. I don’t know if there are other instances, but Jesus’ telling the Pharisees they won’t be forgiven either in this age or the age to come (for blaspheming the HS) would suggest two ages at the least. Ages are indefinite but finite periods of time, so having two of them suggests to me that there would be more than two – or that after those two a “time” of agelessness would come.

Personally, I don’t find this “agelessness” or “eternity” (in the sense of timelessness) in scripture – not in what most of us would consider correct translation of “olam” or “aionios.” Perhaps “ages” go on forever? It’s impossible for me to conceive of a state in which one thing refuses to follow another, but that doesn’t mean it ain’t so . . . .

#11

The ‘age or ages to come’ speak of our present age**/**time where now because of God’s grace as given in Christ the age of righteousness now dwells on behalf of all humanity. The “elements” στοιχεῖα] having melted with fervent heat were the “precepts “and “edicts” of the Old Covenant that ended with Christ’s cross and coming of Ad30-70.

#12

Ok. The other view presented here by Micael is that there are consecutive “ages” (plural) which are to come. I think Cindy also inferred belief in this same thing: “having two of them [ages] suggests to me that there would be more than two…”. As far as I can tell, the scriptures only talk about the *ages to come *as a superlative of the single age to replace this one; the age of the resurrection. I found this quote which may help:

And again:

The superlative does not infer successive or consecutive ages.

Here you have taken the strict spiritual interpretation. Is this based on the amillennium view of prophecy?

Steve

#13

Thanks for sharing that Steve. You learn something new every day.

#14

Yes I agree completely.

From the biblical perspective or time-frame, as I understand it, Jesus, Paul and Co’s “this age” spoke of the then present old covenant age that in Christ was coming to an end, with the subsequent and superlative “age to come”… being the burgeoning, “better” and never-ending new covenant age or “world wherein righteousness dwells”.

I was born and raised an “a-millennialist” but this is more the prêterist view. All the other uses of στοιχεῖα in the NT bear this same thought out…

Gal 4:3, 9 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements στοιχεῖα] of the world. … But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements στοιχεῖα], to which you desire again to be in bondage.

Col 2:8, 20-22 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles στοιχεῖα]* of the world, and not according to Christ. … Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles* στοιχεῖα] of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles στοιχεῖα] of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

#15

Ok. The different views, including historicism, often overlap. Are you a hyper-pret?

Steve

#16

The term has a broader meaning than just the OT. In Colossians 2:8 it means the rudiments of the world, or the basic principles of the world:

In the Septuagint, Wisdom 7:17 (and 19:18), the term was used as is the general understanding of 2 Peter 3:10, 12, where it says:

The term also had a much broader application with secular writers as well as the early church fathers:

I don’t think there is reason to believe that στοιχεῖα is restricted to “the end of the Old Covenant”. The context in 2 Peter 3:10-12 suggests that this would be tied into a purging of the earth, as Noah’s flood was.

Steve

#17

Yes I can appreciate that Steve… however I’m mainly interested in its NT usage.

Again, technically I can agree with that where your broader approach is in view; but sticking with the NT – “the world” in view of Col 2:8 considering the biblical context certainly fits “the old covenant world” as per what follows, and is the prelude to Col 2:20-22 as previously mentioned…

Col 2:14-17 …having wiped out the handwriting [OC Law] of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths [Rom 14:1-6 et al], which are a shadow [OC, [b]Heb 8:5; 10:1] of things to come, but the substance [NC] is of Christ.

Actually this makes my case… it was ‘the world of humanity’ as they knew it that was purged, NOT the literalist’s ‘terra firma’. Jesus makes the same claim with regards to MAN not EARTH when he says… “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. … Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left”. Mt 24:37, 40-41

2Pet 2:5 …and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly.

IOW… said judgement was about “people”. The dividing line wasn’t between water and dirt but between those linked by “covenant” – in it = spared, not in it = doomed. This all had ramifications for the then coming end Mt 24:1-3] as per Ad70 where their OC world finally came crashing down.

#18

I understand your POV; I just don’t agree.

Steve

#19

No worries mate, all good. :slight_smile:

#20

Thanks, Davo, for being polite. It is good to agree to disagree without anyone throwing punches. I think we are meant to disagree on certain things, because the disagreements allow for a greater principal to be at work if we allow it to.

Steve