Moses, the future 'Sabbath Rest' and UR

[Catherine]

I’ve been thinking about Moses and how he wasn’t allowed to enter the land and thus the ‘rest’ and yet we know that this was only a temporary exclusion, because we find Moses in the land and with the glorified Jesus 1400 years later (Matt 17:3). So, is Moses (and all the other Israelites who also died on the way and were not permitted to enter) figurative of those who through disobedience (lack of faith etc) are not entering the kingdom now in this life but will enter eventually?

I read Hebrews chapter 4 where Paul is discussing entering a future rest, and I’m struggling to reconcile how he explains this in relation to the disobedient ones eventually entering in. Hope you can help me guys. Maybe I’m not reading Paul correctly or my translation is hindering my understanding. The first point I notice that is troubling for UR is Heb 4:3, taken from Psalm 95:7-11:

‘‘they shall NEVER enter my rest.’’

I checked this verse out in Biblehub and the lexicon reading doesn’t have ‘never’ but ‘they shall not enter my rest’, so maybe not so bad as it looks.

The biggest ‘problem’ though seems to be in verse 11 where Paul talks about ‘falling’ i.e. not entering the ultimate ‘Rest’. ???

Just now as I’m writing this my sister (who I didn’t consider a believer) has just texted me to check a song by a guy called Mike Scott called ‘what do you want me to do’. I’ve just clicked onto this song by mistake:
youtube.com/watch?v=v7olYqERyfs wow wow wow…

Since I woke up this morning I’ve been praying ‘Lord, are you really saving all people?’ and then wondering about Moses and those who didn’t enter the rest etc was laying on my heart and hence I started this thread.

Here’s the lyrics to that song:

“Bring 'Em All In”

Bring 'em all in, bring’em all in, bring 'em all in,
Bring 'em all in, bring 'em all into my heart
Bring 'em all in, bring 'em all in, bring 'em all in
Bring 'em all in, bring 'em all into my heart

Bring the little fishes
Bring the sharks
Bring 'em from the brightness
Bring 'em from the dark

Bring 'em from the caverns
Bring 'em from the heights
Bring 'em from the shadows
Stand 'em in the light

Bring 'em out of purdah
Bring 'em out of store
Bring 'em out of hiding
Lay them at my door

Bring the unforgiven
Bring the unredeemed
Bring the lost, the nameless
Let 'em all be seen
Bring 'em out of exile
Bring 'em out of sleep
Bring 'em to the portal
Lay them at my feet

It seems God is saying to me ‘I’m bringing em ALL IN’…

[Cindy_Skillman]

That was a beautiful song, Catherine – and a lot for me to think about with your Moses analogy. Thanks!

[Paidion]

I read Hebrews chapter 4 where Paul is discussing entering a future rest, and I’m struggling to reconcile how he explains this in relation to the disobedient ones eventually entering in. Hope you can help me guys. Maybe I’m not reading Paul correctly or my translation is hindering my understanding. The first point I notice that is troubling for UR is Heb 4:3, taken from Psalm 95:7-11:

‘‘they shall NEVER enter my rest.’’

Hi Catherine,
How do you know the writer to the Hebrews (No one knows who the writer was) is discussing a FUTURE rest?
How can he be discussing a future rest when he clearly says, “We who believed (or “trusted”) ARE ENTERING into rest”? That surely sounds like a present process to me.

Indeed, in verse 9 it is called “a sabbath rest.” The early Christians, exempli gratia, Justin Martyr, taught that this was a rest from sin, and that in that sense Christians keep “perpetual sabbath”.

Heb 4:3 in Greek is IDENTICAL to Psalm 95: 11 in the Septugint (the translation from Hebrew to Greek several hundred years before Christ).
What is stated i1s NEITHER “they shall not enter my rest” nor “they shall never enter my rest.” This time the King James has it more correct than the modern translations. Here is my personal translation (as literally as possible)

For we who believed, are entering into rest, even as he said, "As I swore in my anger, if they shall enter into my rest, though the works have come into being from the foundation of the cosmos.

[Catherine]

Hi Cindy, glad you liked it.

Paidion, yes, it’s true we don’t know for sure who wrote Hebrews, so not sure why I assume it’s Paul?? It sounds like Paul maybe?? Anyway, that’s not the important thing, but understanding what this writer is saying. And yes, I understand that the ‘Rest’ is not future for us who are entering the Kingdom NOW. If everyone is going to be saved, then it is future still for the majority of people. Thank you for explaining the translation of Hebrews 4:3. I’m not really grasping the meaning of your translation, but it is 3 am and I woke up about an hour ago as couldn’t sleep, so probably too tired to understand properly. I’ll re- read this tomorrow when I’m more alert. Thanks again.

[Paidion]

I’m not really grasping the meaning of your translation, but it is 3 am and I woke up about an hour ago as couldn’t sleep, so probably too tired to understand properly.

It’s 10:20 A.M. and I’m wide awake, and I still don’t fully grasp the meaning.

[steve7150]

I read Hebrews chapter 4 where Paul is discussing entering a future rest, and I’m struggling to reconcile how he explains this in relation to the disobedient ones eventually entering in. Hope you can help me guys. Maybe I’m not reading Paul correctly or my translation is hindering my understanding. The first point I notice that is troubling for UR is Heb 4:3, taken from Psalm 95:7-11:

‘‘they shall NEVER enter my rest.’’

Hi Catherine,
It sounds to me that Paul is comparing the Sabbath Rest with the Spiritual Rest the believer has in Christ rather then a comparison to heaven. He says in 4.3 “For we who have believed do enter that rest” rather then “will enter that rest after death” and in 4.10 “For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.” The contrast here is doing works, verses resting from works therefore it sounds like a present case comparison which is a ritual Sabbath verses a Spiritual Rest. The Spiritual Rest is knowing we are right with God because of our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.
BTW in Hebrews there are half a dozen uniquely Pauline expressions so i think he probably collaborated on the writing.

[Catherine]

It’s 10:20 A.M. and I’m wide awake, and I still don’t fully grasp the meaning.

Well, I’m glad it’s not just me. I wonder what your understanding of this verse is [tag]JasonPratt[/tag] ?

Hi Steve7150 Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with what you say, but surely the entering of the Land after the 40 years in the desert is figurative of people entering the final ‘Rest’ of God’s restoration of all things. I can see how it applies to us not having to work out our salvation like the Israelites did through the ordinances of the Mosaic Law. So the ‘future Rest’ seems to have an initial realisation when a person becomes a believer and enters God’s rest now in a limited sense, and then of course we look forward to really resting from sin and its effects etc, when Jesus establishes His Kingdom on earth and for all eternity. However…what I’m trying to get sorted in my head is that those who didn’t enter the first rest (the promised Land) and those who don’t enter the Rest now, are going to eventually enter that Rest in the future. The way Paul (?) talks in Hebrews sounds like those who didn’t enter are never going to enter and those who may have entered now can be booted out (if they fall away). That is what I’m trying to determine.

[steve7150]

.what I’m trying to get sorted in my head is that those who didn’t enter the first rest (the promised Land) and those who don’t enter the Rest now, are going to eventually enter that Rest in the future.

Catherine,
I may be wrong but i don’t see a heavenly future discussion here. When Paul previously talked about heaven he made a distinction between our earthly life and then departing and being with the Lord. He said “to die is gain” or “I would be willing to depart and be with the Lord” , but here no such distinction.

The whole book of Hebrews is about the superiority of Jesus and the audience was Jewish believers slipping back into the Mosaic Law. I think that’s the same theme here, the ritual Sabbath Rest verses the Spiritual Rest with Jesus now.

[Catherine]

.what I’m trying to get sorted in my head is that those who didn’t enter the first rest (the promised Land) and those who don’t enter the Rest now, are going to eventually enter that Rest in the future.

Catherine,
I may be wrong but i don’t see a heavenly future discussion here. When Paul previously talked about heaven he made a distinction between our earthly life and then departing and being with the Lord. He said “to die is gain” or “I would be willing to depart and be with the Lord” , but here no such distinction.

The whole book of Hebrews is about the superiority of Jesus and the audience was Jewish believers slipping back into the Mosiac Law. I think that’s the same theme here, the ritual Sabbath Rest verses the Spiritual Rest with Jesus now.

Ah, Ok. Maybe I’ve not understood this properly. I shall re-read Hebrews and ponder and come back to you.

[steve7150]

Ah, Ok. Maybe I’ve not understood this properly. I shall re-read Hebrews and ponder and come back to you.

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Catherine

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I know a lot of preachers use the “promised land” as an analogy of heaven so it’s a common image already in our minds before we read this, but without that image what is Paul actually saying?

[Catherine]

I know a lot of preachers use the “promised land” as an analogy of heaven so it’s a common image already in our minds before we read this, but without that image what is Paul actually saying?

Paul is stressing not hardening our hearts and being disobedient (like those in the desert). If we do, we will no longer be in Christ who is the ‘Rest’.