Mount Sinai vs. Mount Horeb

[LLC]

Many Bible interpreters believe that Mount Sinai and Mount Horeb are one and the same mountain. I don’t believe this is the case. In fact, when Jesus says to Peter “on this rock I will build my church.” I think He may be referring to Mount Horeb. It is also quite possible that the mountain Jesus speaks of moving in Matthew 17:20 is Mount Sinai.

[Paidion]

16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter had just confessed, “You are the Anointed One.” (the meaning of χριστος or “christos”).
Jesus then said that His Father had revealed this to Peter.

Then Jesus made this amazing statement, “I tell you, you are πετρος (petros) and upon this πετρα (petra) I will build my Church.”

“Petros” was Peter’s name. The word means “a small rock or a stone.” But upon this “petra” ( word that means “a huge rock or cliff”) Christ would build his Church. The petra was the rock of Peter’s confession. Peter himself was but a stone. Yet his confession that Jesus was the Anointed One of God was a huge rock. Jesus indicated that He would build His Church on the truth that He was the Anointed One of God! And even the gates of the grave would not prevail against Christ’s Church. For death will not prevail. It would hold His people only until Jesus raises them again on the last day. (John 6:39,40,44,54)

I see no evidence that anyone knows the mountain to which Jesus was referring in Matt 17:20. None of the commentators I have read even speculate on the matter.

[LLC]

On another thread,Davo and I have been discussing the difference between the two covenants that Galatians 4:21-31 speaks of, one of the flesh(man-made) and one of the promise( spiritual-from God) However, I thought this deserved it’s own thread. As I have mentioned before, I don’t believe that the Jewish law of animal sacrifices, rituals, ceremonies, traditions etc. came from God. To me, such things were clearly pagan practices of the ancient world that Israel had joined herself to, and the reason why the temple was destroyed; hence Mt. Sinai vs. Mt. Horeb.

Exodus 3:12 says this: “So He said, 'I will certainly be with you and this shall be a sign that I have sent you; When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain(Horeb).”
Deut. 5:2 “The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.”

The covenant God made at Horeb was the same covenant He made with the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.(one of promise/ the same covenant as that of Jesus). However, some rejected it. They turned and worshipped other gods, creating for themselves a covenant of law,bondage and death as Psalm 106:9 says “They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molded image.” Some versions of the Bible say Sinai as if the two are one and the same. I would say that they made a calf at Sinai.
Exodus 17:6 says “Behold I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb.”
Whereas Jeremiah 21:13 says, “Behold I am against you, o inhabitant of the valley and rock of the plain.”
According to 1Kings 19:8, Elijah goes to Horeb “He kept going until he arrived at Horeb. It was the mountain of God.”
And 2 Peter 1:18 states “And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.”

[LLC]

Many today consider the spiritual teachings of Jesus to be the “New” Testament and “new” covenant. On the contrary, what I am suggesting in this thread, and what I believe to be the truth is that these things were from of old; that they were the very first. In other words, Christianity was the root. It did not grow out of the Jewish law and all of their 600 plus commandments, but the Jewish law was a break off of Christianity. The way I see it, Christianity was the teaching of the earliest of the Hebrew people, starting with Adam and Eve as far as we know.

[Hermano]

First of all, here are a couple of links regarding archeological discoveries that support the idea that Sinai and Horeb are the same, or at least in the same geographic neighborhood:

ronwyatt.com/mount_sinia.html

truediscoveries.org/mount-sinai

(I obviously think amateur archeologist Ron Wyatt was “the real deal.” As 1 Cor. 1:27 says, “But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty.”)

…The way I see it, Christianity was the teaching of the earliest of the Hebrew people, starting with Adam and Eve as far as we know.

Second, I think I’m basically on the same page as LLC that God’s desire for man from the beginning was a covenant of grace, not of works. And we know the promise of the coming Savior was given by God right there at the Fall of Man in Gen. 3:

“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he [Jesus] will crush your head, and you [Satan] will strike his heel.”

Coincidentally LLC, I just wrote a friend last week about this very topic. Please allow me to quote (at length) from my email to him:

…As to the law being a schoolmaster/tutor/guardian to Christ (Gal. 3:24), I think, just maybe, Paul was being overly generous with that comparison. For me, John 1:17 tells the story better:

“For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

Meaning, it was really Moses’ Law, not God’s. Let me support my assertion with some things I’ve shared previously.

The Bible shows a progressively increasing revelation of the goodness of God. So, then, what about that whole sacrificial system instituted by Moses? Professor C.S. Cowles points out that,

“In progressive revelation what we see is…reflective of the human mediators’ growing understanding of his [God’s] character, will, and gracious saving purposes in Scripture. Isaiah, for instance, saw into the mind and heart of God more clearly than Moses when he virtually dismisses the whole sacrificial system that Moses believed to have been instituted by God, instructions that are given in great detail in Exodus and Leviticus. In contradistinction to Israel’s entire temple-cult and priestly system, Isaiah asserts that God does not require “burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals,” and that he took “no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.” What the prophet sees anticipates the dramatically clearer revelation of God fleshed out in Jesus: namely, that God is not impressed by outward ritual but rather inward holiness of heart and life (see Isa. 1:11-18)….

I might add that the whole Mosaic system, to me, seems like an unfortunate interruption in the unilateral, everlasting, Abrahamic covenant of grace for Abraham and his descendants (Gen. 17:19), and for everyone on the planet (“through your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed”). And we remember that being in Christ means we are numbered among the descendants of Abraham! Romans 4, Galatians 3, Hebrews 7.

Regarding the pact being “unilateral”–one-sided, it was so because it was only God making a promise; and the promise was between God and himself (Christ). It was not bilateral, between God and us, with both sides making promises. Everything we need is found in the faithful Christ, alone.

We recall the self-maledictory oath of God in Genesis 15:5-21 (and examined in Hebrews 6:13-20). This was a type of oath, back in that day and culture, which Abraham could understand. And the fact that Abraham was asleep and didn’t walk between the cuttings himself indicated that the covenant held no obligation for Abraham.

We can see the promise from the Father to Christ in these words: *“The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet,” *e.g., Matt. 22:44. Again, in John 3:16, on the part of the Father, we read “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….” On the part of the Son,there had to be an agreement that he would come into the world and live as a man under the Mosaic law, and die to free us from captivity, and to give us the divine life found in his blood. We see his full agreement when Jesus said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law….“Here I am, I have come to do your will.” Heb. 10:8-9.

Jesus rescued us from that terrible Mosaic “hiccup.” Joseph Prince tells how,

"Many years ago, when I was studying God’s Word, the Lord spoke to me, saying, “Before the law was given, none of the children of Israel died when they came out of Egypt. Even though they murmured and complained against God’s appointed leadership, not a single one of them died. This is a picture of pure grace.” I had never heard anyone teach this before or read it in any book, so I quickly went through that portion in my Bible and indeed, I could not find anyone who died before the law was given! You see, when the Israelites journeyed from Egypt to Mount Sinai, they were under the Abrahamic covenant of grace. They only came under the law when the Ten Commandments were given to them at Mount Sinai. Therefore, in spite of their sins, God delivered them out of Egypt and provided for them supernaturally, not based on their goodness and faithfulness, but based on His goodness and faithfulness.

Prince highlights that horrendous exchange of covenants by the Jews in Destined To Reign:

"Study the Bible yourself. You’ll find that every time the children of Israel murmured and complained [before Mount Sinai], it only brought forth fresh demonstrations of God’s favor, supply and goodness. Why? Because during that period, the blessings and provisions they received were not dependent on their obedience or goodness. They were dependent on God’s goodness and faithfulness to the Abrahamic covenant, which was a covenant of grace.

The Exchange Of Covenants At Mount Sinai

Then, something tragic happened right at the foot of Mount Sinai. In Exodus 19:8, your English Bible says that the people cried out to Moses, saying, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.” In the original Hebrew text, this is actually a statement of pride. They were saying, “All that God requires and demands of us, we are well able to perform.” In other words, they were saying, “God, stop assessing or blessing us based on Your goodness. Start assessing, judging and blessing us based on our obedience.” So they effectively exchanged covenants, from the Abrahamic covenant which is based on grace, to the Sinaitic covenant which is based on the law…

Blessings.

[maintenanceman]

LLC said:

The way I see it, Christianity was the teaching of the earliest of the Hebrew people, starting with Adam and Eve as far as we know.

Yes I think you are right though there were some that did not know it!

[Hermano]

LLC said:

The way I see it, Christianity was the teaching of the earliest of the Hebrew people, starting with Adam and Eve as far as we know.

Yes I think you are right though there were some that did not know it!

Here’s an article I read today supporting your assertion:

Bible Symbolism In Genesis, Regarding The First And Second Covenants, at

wordservice.org/Symbolisms%20in%20Genesis/bs1000.htm

The punctuation is a little rough. (I suspect the author is not a native English speaker.) But still well worth considering.

Blessings.

[LLC]

Hermano, Paidion, MM, Thanks for your input.

Hermano, I have a few points of disagreement.

Prince highlights that horrendous exchange of covenants by the Jews in Destined To Reign:

"Study the Bible yourself. You’ll find that every time the children of Israel murmured and complained [before Mount Sinai], it only brought forth fresh demonstrations of God’s favor, supply and goodness. Why? Because during that period, the blessings and provisions they received were not dependent on their obedience or goodness. They were dependent on God’s goodness and faithfulness to the Abrahamic covenant, which was a covenant of grace.

Yes, I believe the blessings were dependent on their obedience and faithfulness. The covenant is stated in Genesis 1:27-28 “So God created man in his own image; in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. Then God blessed them , and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air and over ever living thing that moves on the earth.”

You have to be like God in spirit (in His image) in order to receive the blessings of the covenant.This only makes sense because, if we hate, murder, steal, cheat, lie, etc. etc. we’re not being fruitful. How can we have dominion over anything when our ways are destructive?

They only came under the law when the Ten Commandments were given to them at Mount Sinai.

The problem was not the Ten Commandments which were given well before Mt.Sinai. Genesis 26:5 says 'because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments , My statutes and My law." Yes, there was Law before Moses came along, just not the Jewish law. There was death before Mt. Sinai as well. Noah was saved because of his righteousness. However, the wicked were destroyed. Lot was also saved from Sodom and Gomorrah.etc. etc.