My pastor's response

amy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

I finally gave my pastor a letter, explaining my hope in universal reconciliation and answering a few of his questions, that I’d worked on for weeks. I heard nothing. A few days later I sent him the link to Parry’s article on the 7 Myths of Universalism in the Baptist Times, thought he might find it interesting. Also, gave him the link to Parry’s blog with one of the questions he’d asked me about whether a person will go to heaven regardless of how they respond to Christ on earth.

I got a response!

This is the first part…I went on the theologicalscribble sight.
“Your decisions may delay your participation is salvation but, in the end, they will not thwart it. So, everyone will be saved even if they do not respond to Christ in this life.”

I have some questions to his statements: "How you respond to Christ is still essential. " My question: why?
I think I ask why to all his still important statements.

I heard Rob Bell and there is no Hell statement.

It troubled me then as it does now.

consider me closed minded and set in my ways.
I think I want to stay far away from Universalism. After all… who cares what we believe anyway. my decision, if wrong will only delay may participation in salvation.

Sorry Amy, the more I read the more it confirms my notion to stay away.

I don’t know whio he is but I agree with Matt Slick

He attached the info. from Matt Slick, most of which I found to be completely inaccurate and so don’t want to bother posting here. Also, he attached a long section about Unitarian Universalists and I was able to clarify that I reject their beliefs.

Here is one of my responses…
Frank, I reflected on your words to me, " After all… who cares what we believe anyway. My decision, if wrong, will only delay may participation in salvation."

“Only delay my participation in salvation” is a common response to hearing that God is working to effectively reconcile all.

Do we find value in knowing God now?

It’s as if people don’t see much value in coming to Know God now, that salvation is only fire insurance. Reminds me of when Paul quotes others asking if we should sin that grace may abound. There may be grace available, but why would we want to continue sinning? That’s silly! Are we not convinced that sin leads to death? If our leg was broke would we say, “It’ll get fixed someday. Why bother now? What’s the point in going to the dr. now if we can just get it fixed in 10 years?”

Do we understand that we are broken and in need of God? Do we think knowing God doesn’t make a difference, except in a future sense? Being separated from God is no picnic. Living without hope and fellowship with him is a drag! The consequence of sin and God’s discipline, wrath, is not pleasant either. Do we think we only need to fear God’s wrath if it’s for an endless amount of time? If it were like being lit on fire, how many seconds would we want that? We wouldn’t mind a few hundred years? How about a thousand? A million? I’ll pass.

I’m not sure the fear that God will torture us forever, if we don’t believe the right things, is healthy, though some fear of God is proper because he will judge us. It’s God’s love, I find, that motivates me to love Him and others. He is so wonderful! How could we think, “If God is working to reconcile all then I’ll just go without him for now? Who cares if we believe?”

It disheartens me that instead of finding reason to rejoice that God is working to reconcile all things, some, instead, find reason to think our relationship with God no longer matters. I scratch my head in disbelief! I hope you will agree that this is craziness.

amy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

He quickly responded to my last response.

Several months ago you appeared to be down on “traditional believers " and exalted nonbelievers. remember the bar lady who cusses but is a hamanitarian, the woman abused by her husband but continues to do the right thing. The church going Christian who is judgmental… I dont remember the exact words, probably can go back and find them. See, I agree with the benifits of knowing Christ now and not for fire insurance. There is true joy and victory in Christ today. But in the context of previous conversations and the quote from the man you pointed me to about not needing to do anything with Christ now… I will cut and paste it later. It gets confusing when it appears that you have a problem with the mainstream Chrisitians and not the world. I believe we all need Jesus. That God loves every one of us. His desire is that none should perish. Why would He talk about entering into the narrow gate? Why would people be challenged to choose this day who you will serve? Why are we called to go and make disciples? The quote I will be sending you - which I have already given a couple of times… about delayed salvation without Christ appeared to line up with your earlier comments a few months ago. That’s why I sarcastically asked " After all… who cares what we believe anyway. My decision, if wrong, will only delay may participation in salvation.” See once again I agree with a lot of what you say(like your message above about current benifits) but I come away confused because you seem to go back and forth. But here is the kicker… You are probably communicating effectively, but I’m old and traditional. And I forget things easily. forgive me for not putting all the pieces together. Its probably frustrating on your end trying to convince a feeble old man. Have a good night Amy.

And…“Your decisions may delay your participation is salvation but, in the end, they will not thwart it. So, everyone will be saved even if they do not respond to Christ in this life.”
This is the quote I was looking for. Do you agree with it?
The demons believe and shutter. - Is there hope for them?
Every knee will bow… every tongue confess - Does that mean everyone will be in heaven regardless? or does it have another meaning? I’m sooo confused?

And finally…ABOVE ALL AMY, I APPRECIATE YOUR LOVE FOR OUR LORD. YOU CONTINUALLY REMIND OTHERS OF HIS LOVE GRACE AND MERCY. IT IS A JOY AND BLESSING TO KNOW YOU AND YOUR HEART.

I was so greatful for the last part because I’d worried he was offended and couldn’t get a good read of the end of the first part, that seemed a bit sarcastic. His overall response to my criticism of his original statement of why bother if it only delays our salvation was quite puzzling.

Here is some of my response…Frank, I was really passionate in my last response because I’ve heard that response so many times. I’m sorry that I haven’t been clearer and seem to go back and forth. I do believe response is key. I become distressed with Christians that think their faith is about getting off the hook, because they profess the right things, instead of following Christ. It’s troubling that non-Christians often do the will of God better than we. God sees past religion to the heart. We may think we believe all the right things, like pharisees, but our hearts remain unchanged. This is a problem for us all - whether we think we believe all the correct doctrines, are a Christian, or are not.

I know my universalism is really confusing. I was really confused too and had all these same questions. That’s part of the hard part is that once you answer one question, it immediately leads to another. It’s a neverending journey of a headache. My head hurt for years! It still hurts at times, but a lot less. I’ve had to unlearn what I’d learned and do away with all my presuppositions. There are so many things to talk about, which are hard to do over the internet. Please know that I don’t mean to be hard on you. I’m just really eager to explain.

Your are correct that I do believe there will be opportunity to respond after this life, that is our main difference. I don’t think God shuts the door on trying to reach people, especially since I see that his wrath is for a purpose, not as payback, but as a tool in helping them come to their senses and so that they understand their need for him. The point of our faith in him, is that we embrace Him as our Lord and enter into relationship with Him. We don’t see all do this now, but I think we will. Every knee bowing, every tongue confessing (in praise) means that all will eventually respond to Christ, that it will not be forced. I don’t picture them bowing, confessing he is Lord and then being shipped off to be tortured forever. What kind of God does that? God’s goal is to reconcile people to Him.

They may end up with Him, but not before having had to experience His sternness first, that was for their benefit because he loves them. I do believe death and sin will be completely destroyed so that it does not continue with rebels in an endless hell .

revdrew61 · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Thanks for posting this Amy. I feel really moved reading it and will continue to pray for you and for Frank. God bless, Andrew

Alex_Smith · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Thanks for posting this Amy. I think you’ve done an excellent job with your replies to him too. I pray God uses this to open his eyes. His “old” age isn’t a barrier to God

amy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Thanks guys! I am finding that it is very difficult to engage all the questions and he hasn’t even fielded that many to me. Reminds me, Alex, when you got yourself involved talking to quite a few people and I worried about you having so much on your plate. You seemed to fair well. It’s hard to keep up.

Maybe someday Gene and I’ll get to visit him and his wife and actuallly sit down to talk. It’s nice, however, that we often get to interact on fb over verses that he regularly posts. I was so pleasantly pleased with his last, very generous comment, to see the positive in me. I think this speaks very highly of his character that he doesn’t just resort to calling me a heretic. I see so much promise in him and have not let go of trying to communicate the hope that God will one day reconcile all.

It’s funny because he expressed that UUs don’t have any need to share their faith and prosletize (sp.?) less, as a result. I asked him if he found me to be lacking in sharing my faith? Which is quite funny because I won’t leave him alone. Poor guy!

I can completely appreciate that he feels lost! I remember that feeling so well…it’s like the ground is swept right out from under you, not a pleasant feeling! The hope that comes out of it - too good to be true, but really is!

JeffA · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Well if it’s any consolation Amy I choose to stick around here rather than somewhere else online And in large part due to theese kinds of threads.

Alex_Smith · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

I still have close to a dozen “lines in the river” waiting for people to get back to me (maybe they’re holding back whilst I’m sleep deprived with a newborn ). Anyway, I’m still keen to engage with people on the topic but don’t want to pressure anyone, as that’s usually counterproductive.

Face-to-face certainly can help as most 40% of email communication is misunderstood! Also:

"]When someone speaks to you face-to-face, what percentage of the meaning is actually in the words, as opposed to the body language and tone of voice? Take a guess.

It’s 7 percent. The other 93 percent is nonverbal, according to studies. No, I don’t know how they arrived at that exact number. They have a machine or something. But we didn’t need it. I mean, come on. Most of our humor is sarcasm, and sarcasm is just mismatching the words with the tone. Like my friend’s “No, thank you.”

amy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

I guess I shouldn’t laugh. Sleep deprivation is a serious matter! And I’m surprised you are still so active on here.

I’ve realized this. It’s hard enough to communicate face to face, much less on the internet. I’d mentioned someday getting together with he and his wife to just visit. He didn’t say, “Hey, that’s a great idea, though!” Can’t say as I blame him since you really can get quite the headache from all of this. It’s not easy to question everything you’ve always believed.

I’m glad you are sticking around. I’m not sure why over this thread, but I’m glad about it! You have lots of great insights!

TotalVictory · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Well amy, the hardest thing for me is remembering that it’s the work of the Holy Spirit to convict – not mine. I’ve run ahead of the Spirit, trampling Him I’m sure in the process and angering and or losing my case, more times than I care to recall. I want so badly to share this good news of UR that I let myself get in the way!

The words of this man fascinate me; why on earth the fierce hold belief in hell has on folks! As if God is less, is not and can not be ALL in ALL, unless hell/annihilation exist. When you stop and think about that, it’s utterly astonishing! As if God is made more real and majestic because of hell/annihilation??

Oh my!

If truth is on our side (your side; my side) in UR, it doesn’t need us to run ahead defending it. I think it’d be just so cool to hear God say of us some day, “they spoke of Me what is Right…”

So the actual sharing of UR with those who’ve thought little (if at all) of it can be dicey and troubling. And as a general rule it does seem that those who are perfectly happy with the religion (ideas/theology/etc) they have are the least likely to warm to UR.

Thanks for sharing and for the demonstrations of graciousness…

TotalVictory
Bobx3

amy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

That’s actually funny, TV, because I think in my original response I’d had those exact words, but took them out. Maybe you are rubbing off on me? That would be a good thing.

I do agree with you about not getting in the way and just letting God’s Spirit do the work. I don’t need to get ahead of myself.

I like this thought! I’ll have to remember it.

JasonPratt · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Well, he’s awake, he has to be doing something!

My Dad used to watch Godzilla and Chinese kung-fu movies at night while feeding me my bottle. I doubt it is any coincidence whatever that I still love Godzilla and Chinese kung-fu movies today (even while being critical of their shortcomings, but also pleased whenever they do better. Whenever I find a new one I like, I make sure to watch it with my Dad today, too. )

So I’d say there’s a good chance Alex’s daughter will grow up loving God’s salvation of all sinners from sin!

Alex_Smith · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

maybe it’s escapism

I certainly hope both of my children grow up loving God and at the very least understand that ECT isn’t the only option.

AUniversalist · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Better than a letter I got back in 2007, from a former Youth Pastor I worked with… lol

Hello C----!

Wow…a universalist! This came as quite a shock to me…but I must say, you are at least consistent with your theology. You see, modern evangelicalism teaches what you teach, in essence, but they will draw back in horror from the ramifications that you espouse …and I try to get them to admit!

Yes, words like “all” and “world” are used by the Billy Grahams of evangelicalism to invite sinners to come and get saved. “Christ is the propitiation for not only us, but for the whole world…BUT…accept Jesusasyourpersonalsavior or he will throw you into hell!” Jesus loves you sooooo much that he died for your sins and the sins of the whole world, BUT if you don’t accept Jesusasyourpersonalsavior He will throw you into hell."

I hope you see a contradiction in the modern evangelical message. They are inconsistent. You are consistent. You are a consistent heretic, they are inconsistent heretics. You are correct. If Christ paid the ransom for the “whole world”, then there is no more wrath! If Jesus is the propitiation for the “whole world”, then there is no more wrath! Pelegian/Arminian evangelicals are inconsistent in that they teach that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but if you do not believe on Jesus and accepthimasyoursavior you will suddenly be cast into hell! What?!? I thought they just said that Jesus paid it all and died for all the sins of the whole world?!?! No wonder the message of the gospel is held in such derision. Even a fool can see the inconsistency of this message. “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life and if you don’t accepthimasyourpersonalsavior he will then cast you into hell.”???

These modern evangelicals do err…as you do err…

I would ask a simple question. What meaning do you pour into the words “all” and “world”. You do understand that context determines the meaning don’t you? If I say to you that all the children came to my daughter’s birthday party, do you believe that every child in the history of the world came to my daughter’s party? No you don’t, for that would be foolish. Context would determine who actually came and that everyone of my daughters friends came to the party. If I say that Caesar taxed all of the world, do I mean that the Indians in Alberta were taxed? No of course not! We understand that based on context Caesar taxed the world of the Roman Empire. Did you know that there are at least 7 different meaning to the greek word “kosmos” (world) in the New Testament? Context determines meaning.

I will simply throw out to you that you do err in your understanding of both the English language and interpretation of the Scriptures. You have mis-interpreted key scriptures and deduced that God paid the ransom for the world when he only paid the ransom for the world…did you catch that? What I just said is either insane or determined by context. Christ indeed paid the ransom for all…but who is “all”? Is “all” all of mankind? or “all” of the matter in the universe? Who? are you limiting the word “all” to humans? Could not “all” mean dirt, deer and deserts?

Craig, you are wrong. You are guilty of misinterpreting scripture. You have not sought out the CONTEXT of the passages that you use to bolster your heretical postition. You are consistent, at least, but you consistently wrong. You have kindled God’s wrath and it abides upon you as you read this. Repent! You will go to the same hell that the devil and his angels will go to unless you repent. The devil quoted scripture to the Lord Jesus Christ and every heretic in history has done the same…Your idiotic website is an embarrassment and and I am ashamed to know you. Repent!

REPENT!!!

Alex_Smith · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Wow that is harsh and such an unhelpful way to engage with people! Were you able to reason with him any further? e.g. Keith DeRose has written some good articles on “all”, but it sadly sounds like this person isn’t interested in discussion.

dirtboy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

StudentoftheWord:

Better than a letter I got back in 2007, from a former Youth Pastor I worked with… lol

Hello C----!

Wow…a universalist! This came as quite a shock to me…but I must say, you are at least consistent with your theology. You see, modern evangelicalism teaches what you teach, in essence, but they will draw back in horror from the ramifications that you espouse …and I try to get them to admit!

Yes, words like “all” and “world” are used by the Billy Grahams of evangelicalism to invite sinners to come and get saved. “Christ is the propitiation for not only us, but for the whole world…BUT…accept Jesusasyourpersonalsavior or he will throw you into hell!” Jesus loves you sooooo much that he died for your sins and the sins of the whole world, BUT if you don’t accept Jesusasyourpersonalsavior He will throw you into hell."

I hope you see a contradiction in the modern evangelical message. They are inconsistent. You are consistent. You are a consistent heretic, they are inconsistent heretics. You are correct. If Christ paid the ransom for the “whole world”, then there is no more wrath! If Jesus is the propitiation for the “whole world”, then there is no more wrath! Pelegian/Arminian evangelicals are inconsistent in that they teach that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but if you do not believe on Jesus and accepthimasyoursavior you will suddenly be cast into hell! What?!? I thought they just said that Jesus paid it all and died for all the sins of the whole world?!?! No wonder the message of the gospel is held in such derision. Even a fool can see the inconsistency of this message. “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life and if you don’t accepthimasyourpersonalsavior he will then cast you into hell.”???

These modern evangelicals do err…as you do err…

I would ask a simple question. What meaning do you pour into the words “all” and “world”. You do understand that context determines the meaning don’t you? If I say to you that all the children came to my daughter’s birthday party, do you believe that every child in the history of the world came to my daughter’s party? No you don’t, for that would be foolish. Context would determine who actually came and that everyone of my daughters friends came to the party. If I say that Caesar taxed all of the world, do I mean that the Indians in Alberta were taxed? No of course not! We understand that based on context Caesar taxed the world of the Roman Empire. Did you know that there are at least 7 different meaning to the greek word “kosmos” (world) in the New Testament? Context determines meaning.

I will simply throw out to you that you do err in your understanding of both the English language and interpretation of the Scriptures. You have mis-interpreted key scriptures and deduced that God paid the ransom for the world when he only paid the ransom for the world…did you catch that? What I just said is either insane or determined by context. Christ indeed paid the ransom for all…but who is “all”? Is “all” all of mankind? or “all” of the matter in the universe? Who? are you limiting the word “all” to humans? Could not “all” mean dirt, deer and deserts?

Craig, you are wrong. You are guilty of misinterpreting scripture. You have not sought out the CONTEXT of the passages that you use to bolster your heretical postition. You are consistent, at least, but you consistently wrong. You have kindled God’s wrath and it abides upon you as you read this. Repent! You will go to the same hell that the devil and his angels will go to unless you repent. The devil quoted scripture to the Lord Jesus Christ and every heretic in history has done the same…Your idiotic website is an embarrassment and and I am ashamed to know you. Repent!

REPENT!!!

WOW! So what is this guys position? He derides evangelicals and you (as a separate category to him?). What is he?

amy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Wow Craig, that letter from your former youth pastor was very hateful! It didn’t really say much either. I think it’s proof that what really matters is the heart. It could not possibly be ok with God that he would speak like that, think like that, feel like that.

Tonight, my brother-n-law Jeff cited that the reason God made vessels of wrath is so that the ones he shows mercy would know mercy. Never realized how crazy that is. I asked him if he’d need to put his eldest daughter in a fiery dungeon forever so that his other children could know his mercy/love. I couldn’t imagine my dad having to beat my sister forever so I could appreciate his love for me. Yowzers, I’d think he’d not beat her if he loves me. Talbott makes so much sense on this point. Sometimes you wonder if there is some kind of conspiracy that we haven’t thought more about these things. How is it even possible to believe something so bankrupt? I should say this was really not even the worst. The worst was that right before it, he added that he did not think God’s whole point was love. Where do you begin with something like this? I guess you don’t, you let the holy spirit.

AUniversalist · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

Hello,

I don’t know what he is, but he is now a very ‘authoritarian’ individual. I think he likes the control.

I don’t think much of the letter, I did try to reason and ask him for the basis of his belief, but he couldn’t contradict Scriptures that blatantly say what we (here) believe. He got flustered and stopped talking to me.

dirtboy · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

The reason I asked is that he dismissed modern evangelicals and he also called you a heretic, so I’m trying to figure out where he was coming from.
Chris

AUniversalist · March 9, 2018, 1:46am

He left the church after a bout with drug abuse, felt deeply ashamed of his behavior and found our love for him too much and unacceptable.

Three years later, he sends me this.

So I assume he found a church that reinforced his guilty conscience and through this, I believe he fell into authoritarian denomination of Protestant Christianity, in which he could project his feelings of guilt on others instead of living a forgiven life.