The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My Top Six Scriptures That Show Jesus Will Save All People


#1

There are over 1350 verses in my King James Bible that I highlighted in light blue indicating that they support universal salvation through Jesus. These verses directly teach universalism, the sovereignty of Almighty God, and other nuances that confirm the doctrine. Of these I have my favorites. I’ve put together my top six and the reasons why they’re my go-to scriptures when discussing God’s plan to save all people.

  1. 1 Timothy 2:4“[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” For me, this is the king of the heap. It clearly spells out God’s will. Other Bible versions say that God wants, desires and wishes that all people be saved and come to the truth. This verse completely supports universalism, no matter what word you use to describe God’s will, so I don’t really have to explain it. It puts the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of those who say Jesus will cast the defiant into hell for all eternity. They believe God wants to save all people, but for some reason is unwilling or unable to do it. I want to hear their reasons why the all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, Almighty Creator of all mankind can’t get what He wants.

  2. Jeremiah 32:27“Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh, is there any thing too hard for Me?” I say, “No, nothing is too hard for You, Father. You are able to save all people and bring them to the truth.” Those who believe in eternal hell for unbelievers do have a list of things that are too hard for the Almighty to accomplish. I want to see my heavenly Father’s face when they present this list to Him.

  3. John 5:22-23“For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent Him.” I believe this scripture in underused by universalists. Scriptural universalists believe that there is a judgment, and that it will be horrible for those who go through it. But we also believe there is a very high, ultimate purpose for that judgment – “That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.” The word honor means to prize or revere. All people will eventually prize and revere Jesus, and His judgment will play a vital role in accomplishing this.

  4. Matthew 18:11-14“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.” We must understand the value of every soul to God. We are all former “little ones,” and God does not want us to ultimately perish. The problem is that we all grow up, sprout armpit hair, and rebel. Still, Jesus came to save what was lost – all of us – and He won’t fail.

  5. Acts 3:20-21 – *“And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” *When Jesus comes all will be fully restored. This is no secret. God has talked about since the world began. Will you believe it?

  6. 1 John 4:14“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” This verse gives us a title for Jesus and His mission: Savior of the world. Will He or won’t He fulfill His title and mission? How could you or I bet against Him succeeding? He is and will be the Savior of the world – everyone…all people…yes, really, all people. Now that’s good news…no, that’s great news!

There’s my Top Six. You may have your favorites also. I’d love to hear them and why you chose them. There are numerous scriptures to choose from, and my top choices will probably change from time to time. Keep searching the Scriptures for evidence of God’s unfailing love for you and His entire creation.


#2

John 12:32,32 … I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. He said this to show by what death he was to die.

When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, and died, did He draw all people to Himself? Over 2000 years has elapsed since that event. Has He drawn all people to Himself at any time in history? Then how will His word be fulfilled?
Will it not be fulfilled when all have come under His feet? When all have submitted to His Lordship?

Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

The passage above seems to indicate that it is God’s purpose to reconcile all to Himself.

Ephesians 1:9,10
For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So it seems that God’s plan for the eschaton (the fullness of time) is to unite with His entire creation. That is possible only if the entire creation comes under His rule. Is it not the final stage of the Kingdom of God that all creation be ruled by Him and give Him honour and worship?

Romans 5:18,19
So then as through one transgression condemnation resulted for all people, even so through one righteous act justification of life resulted for all people. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.

After Adam sinned, his descendants (all people) inherited the sinful nature and thus their sinful actions resulted in condemnation. By Christ’s righteous act of dying on behalf of the whole world, grace was given to those who submit to Him to live righteously. Since all people will sooner or later be justified, this indicates that all will ultimately, of their own free will, submit to Christ.

Through Adam’s disobedience the many (not just “many”) were constituted sinners. Adam is contrasted with “the many” (everyone else). Similarily, though Christ’s obedience to the death, “the many”(again “everyone else”) will be constituted righteous.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I’ve heard it said, “Oh yes, every knee will bow all right — when they are hit behind the knee with a two-by-four.” But that is not God’s way. His way is to win people to Himself, not force them. Their submission and confession of Jesus as Lord, to the glory of the Father, will come about by their own free will.

The next sentence affirms that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can be forced to make that confession. It must be voluntary.

Even an earthly king will have far greater glory if his enemies willingly come under his reign than he would have if they were merely forced to submit.

I Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.

This verse states that the living God is the Saviour of all people. In what sense? More than 99% of all people who have lived since Paul wrote this, have not known the Saviour. So it must be that they will all come to know Him in the future. Otherwise, how can He be the Saviour of all people?

In what sense is He the Saviour especially of those who believe? Those who believe (have entrusted themselves to Him) will not have to undergo that severe mercy (the purifying fires of Gehenna) in order to come to the place of repentance and deliverance from sin.

Revelation 5:12-13
And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages!”

In his vision, John hears every created thing in the universe praising God! Even those “under the earth” (presumably in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire). Surely this is not a forced praise, but a genuine praise.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Some point out that in the scriptures, “all” is sometimes used figuratively. For example in Matthew 8:34, it is stated that “all the city came out to meet Jesus”. In this statement, “all” seems to be used for emphasis to indicate that many people from the city came out. From this it is supposed that the passages which I have quoted may not literally refer to all people. However, in Romans 11:32 above, there is parallel construction. If it is literally all people consigned to disobedience, then it is literally all people upon whom He will have mercy.

Philippians 3:20,21
But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

What could be clearer? Jesus has the power to subject all to Himself. Some may argue that this will be forced. I think Jesus will greatly influence them to submit, but they won’t be forced.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. “For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection under him,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

I think that in Adam all die a spiritual death. The scriptures refer to those who are not in Christ as “dead”. But in Christ, all are made spiritually alive. Some may argue that this refers to the fact that all descendants of Adam will die a physical death, and that all of his descendants will also be resurrected, either in the resurrection of the righteous or the resurrection of the unrighteous.

However,according to the apostle Paul, not all the descendants of Adam will die a physical death!

I Corinthians 15:51-54
Lo! I tell you a secret: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”


#3

But the following is the “queen” of all verses for me. Although it doesn’t show that Jesus will save all people, it does seem to clearly indicate post-mortem correction:

  • The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment, to be corrected.*

    Here is an interlinear for your consideration:

    οιδεν—κυριος— ευσεβεις εκ πειρασμου ρυεσθαι— αδικους
    knows the Lord- devout—out of trial—— to deliver-unrighteous

    δε -εις —ημεραν κρισεως—— κολαζομενους τηρειν
    but into a day—- of judgment to be corrected to keep (2 Peter 2:9)

    The whole strength of this text stating post-mortem correction, lies in the translation of the lexical form of κολαζομενους, that is, “κολαζω” as “to correct”.

    I realize that some may object to this translation, but the Online Bible Greek Lexicon gives the primary meanings of “κολαζω”as:

     *to lop or prune
     to chastise, correct, punish*
    

    Abbott-Smith’s A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament gives the meanings:

     *to curtail, dock, prune
     to check, restrain
     to chastise, correct, punish*
    

    Originally, the word was used to reference to the pruning of trees, shrubs, or vines with a view to correcting their growth by shaping them. Later it was used figuratively with reference to the correction of people, e.g. children.

    To translate the word as “punish” is correct as long as it is understood to be reformative rather than retributive. In English, “punish” may have either connotation, although it is more often taken in the latter sense, or in the sense of administering a penalty.

    In Greek, the word “τιμωρεω” has the meaning “to punish” in the retributive sense. Indeed, every lexicon I have checked gives the primary meaning as “to avenge”. Strongs indicates that the word was derived from the two words “τιμη” (honour) and “οὐρος”(guard). Put them together, and you have the concept of a person guarding his honour through vengeance. In recording Paul’s own words concerning his treatment of disciples of Christ prior to Paul’s becoming a disciple himself, Luke wrote:

    Acts 22:5 "as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished (τιμωρεω).

    Acts 26:11 "and I punished (τιμωρεω) them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.

    One of the best ways to get a sense of how a Greek word is used is to note how it is used in literature. The word is used in 4 Macabees 2:12 to indicate correction of children. No good parent punishes his children out of vengeance, but corrects them out of love.

    [The law] takes precedence over affection for children, so that one corrects them for their misdeeds.

    4 Macabees is thought to have been written sometime between 100 B.C. to 100 A.D., that is, in the period in which the New Testament was written. It seems the author had been strongly moved by his reading of the deeds of Antiochus Ephiphanes against the Jews in 1 and 2 Macabees. So much of his “philosophical” thought and “devout reason” centers around the history he read there. In the following sentence he uses both “τιμωρεω” and “ κολαζω“ in a single sentence!

    The tyrant Antiochus was both punished (τιμωρεω) on earth and is being corrected (κολαζω) after his death. (4 Maccabees 18:5)

    The Judaistic belief at the time was that people’s souls survive death. So the sentence seems to say that while Antochus’s enemies got their revenge on him and his armies here on earth, God began to correct his soul after death. The author apparently held that post-mortem punishment was remedial. Otherwise he would not have chose the word “κολαζω” but would have maintained the word “ τιμωρεω” for his punishment after death, too.

    Here is an example from the Septuagint translation of Ezekiel 43:10-11:

    And you, son of man, show to the household of Israel, the house, and show its appearance and its arrangement,that they may cease from their sins. And they shall receive their κολασις concerning all their doings, and you shall describe the house, and its entrances and its foundation, and all its systems, and you shall make known to them all it regulations and describe them in their presence, and they shall guard all my righteous ordinances and all my commands and do them. (Ezekiel 43:10-11)

    In this passage, God states His purpose in asking Ezekiel to show the house to Israel, namely that they may cease from their sins. He immediately follows this with And they shall receive their κολασις concerning all their doings. If God wants them to cease from their sins, and then gives them κολασις, is he punishing them retributively, or is He correcting them? The answer seems plain. Furthermore the conclusion of the matter is that the Israelites will guard all my righteous ordinances and all my commands and do them.

    Surely this is reformation, and not mere revenge for their wrongdoing in the past.

    Here is the Concordant translation of the verse in question:

    The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging.


#4

Thanks WesF - a good list of verses, with good unpacking of each one :sunglasses:

Thanks Paidoin too. It’s a shame some of these good verses are hidden from us in the mainstream translations:

Both give the impression the punishment is before JD :confused: although if the punishment here is correction:mrgreen:

All still miss the correction aspect of the punishment :neutral_face:

As you say, this one is the closest to your translation :slight_smile:


#5

This is an awesome thread. I’ve always noticed the “all” in those verses, but the problem is I can’t prove that 'all" means “all,” if you know what I mean. Your thoughts?


#6

In the Scriptures “all” doesn’t always mean “all,” but sometimes “all” does mean “all.” Context is the key. In my book Jesus and Hitler from ch. 9, titled ***I Object!***, where I address some objections to universal salvation:

All Doesn’t Always Mean All
True. But all does sometimes mean all. Following are some instances in the Bible where the word all does not mean all people.

Matthew 3: “5Then went out to [John the Baptist] Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.” The Pharisees did not go to John to be baptized, and I’m assuming there were others. This statement is not literally true.

Matthew 10:22: “And you shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.” Jesus warned His followers of the result of being faithful to Him. But not all men hated the disciples. Three thousand believed, repented and were baptized after Peter’s first sermon following Jesus’ ascension into heaven.
There are more examples of all not literally meaning all in the Scriptures. Following are three crucial examples of all meaning all, examples which you must take on faith because none are yet complete.

1 Timothy 2:4: “[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

John 5: “28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation [judgment].”

Acts 3: “20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”


#7

who says All will not die in Adam? of course All will die in Adam, until 2nd resurrection, if we take it literally,

for as in Adam all die (wages of sin is death), and in Christ all will be made alive (in Holy Spiritual Body),
but better to repent now

and if we take it spiritually all will die in Adam after throwing into lake of fire


#8

Here is the Jonathan Mitchell NT translation of 2 Peter 2:9 . . .


#9

thanks for sharing this, I will say one thing in response and it is this, the ‘‘king of the pile’’ as you put it could change depending on which version of the bible your quoting from !, I’m no fan of the KJV


#10

(robin)
Thanks for sharing Jonathan Mitchell’s NT translation, his is one of my go-to readings;
he’s not as literal as say Youngs, Dabhar (The Writ), and the CLNT, but there’s always some slightly different or informative insight he provides;
similiar, I think, to what I get out of Rotherham’s translations …

Again, thanks for mentioning Jonathan Mitchell’s NT, it’s a good resource that others should look into …


#11

I wonder about this, because at the second resurrection all the remaining dead(after the first) are raised, so it appears to me they will be placed in the lake of fire after being “resurrected”. If the lake of fire is a purifying fire. They had already died in Adam.

It seems possible to me that if “death and the grave” are cast into the lake of fire in order to be dissolved there is a parallel to 2 Peter 3:9

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

4747
stoicheia
elements

de
moreover

2741
kausoumena
burning with heat

3089
lythēsetai
will be dissolved

2532
kai

and

1093

[the] earth

2532
kai
and

3588
ta
the

1722
en
in

846
autē
it

2041
erga
works

2147
heurethēsetai
will be exposed

“…the heavens will be dissolved by burning heat and the earth and the works in it will be exposed” This descibes(imo) perfectly what the lake of fire does as the second death, and may be what occurs to those thrown into it.

The burning heat of the presence of the Lord, His face like sun shining in its strength(dissolution of darkness) and His eyes like flames of fire(exposure)

also perhaps a parallel in Rev 14:10

basanisthēsetai
he will be tormented

1722
en
in

4442
pyri
fire

2532
kai
and

2303
theiō
brimstone

1799
enōpion
before

32
angelōn
angels

40
hagiōn
[the] holy

2532
kai
and

1799
enōpion
before

3588
tou
the

721
Arniou
Lamb

A definition of basanizo:** I examine**, as by torture; I torment;** I buffet, as of waves**.

He will be buffeted by waves (of light/fire?maybe) in the presence(before the faces) of the holy angels and of the Lamb.


#12

You might find it interesting, Eaglesway, that the Online Bible’s Greek lexicon gives as its first and primary meaning of βασανιζω (basanizō):

The English word “basalt” is derived from the Greek βασανος (basanos), which means “touchstone” and was doubtless the type of stone that was used.

On this basis, I would translate the clause in Rev. 14:10 as “He shall be tested with fire and brimstone.” That is, as he is continually receiving correction, he will be tested from time to time to see whether or not he is ready to repent. I take the “fire and brimstone” figuratively as much in the book of Revelation must be taken, since Revelation consists mostly of a vision that John saw at Patmos.


#13

Yes, I had read that, but thanks, because it is beautiful and definitely applies. I like tested, but I also like buffeted. These are adversaries, and in addition to being tested and tried and assayed, I believe they will be buffeted. So I wonder if there is a word which could include both concepts, tested and buffeted :slight_smile:

smelted? refined? purified? I believe the lake of fire represents all those aspects of being subjected to the presence of the One who dwells in unapproachable light, and having every hidden thing brought to the surface…for exposure(confession) and dissolution(remission).

I like Malachi 3

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. 3 He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me,” says the Lord of hosts. 6 “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

These are very similar to Rev 14:10 and 21:8 and 22:15… Also Mt 25;42-46

Tested/buffeted in the presence of… I will draw near to you for judgment, etc.


#14

But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.… Rom 2

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom 2

Then I saw a great white throne and the One who sat on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.… Rev 21

So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 11Therefore, since we know what it means to fear of the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well.…2 Cor 5

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…Heb 4

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; **for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, **and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.Heb 10

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12

The similarity between the wording in verse in Heb 12 and the verses in 2 Peter 3 are very similar

This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire…

“…the heavens will be dissolved by burning heat and the earth and the works in it will be exposed” .


#15

Here are some of my favorites:

Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

This says it all for me…Love, especially the love of God, the ultimate criteria of love, will never fail. And for thousands or millions or however many of his children would be destined for Hell, I would say that could be considered a ‘failure’.

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

It says in the Bible we were all created to do good works, which God chose for us, before the world began. If we are created to do good works, then God began a good work in us, and if that is so, then He will complete it at the day of Jesus Christ.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:10

I like this one because it seems to me there is no refuting the inclusiveness of God’s saving the entire world, because not only will believers be saved, but also those who don’t believe.

…21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.… 1 Corinthians 15:22

Again, I love the inclusiveness of this statement. We know we all died in Adam…just look around…but this states an analogy, that just as all died in Adam, all will be made alive, in Christ.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

God sent His Son to save the world.

…37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.… Romans 8:37-39

There is NOTHING, that can separate us from God, therefore, there are NO limits to the fact that God can reach us, wherever we are, and if that is the case, His great love will never cease to try to bring us home.

Reading through, there are many others that I would call favorites, as well. The longer I am a UR believer, the more verses seem to afirm this. Our perception is so important…just a little turn in our way of thinking and everything changes, thanks, I am sure, to the Holy Spirit.

D.


#16

Great list of verses. God can indeed do anything He wants, and He wants everyone to be saved. Surely this verse is enough to disprove the traditional assumption of everyone but Universalists that once people are in Hell, God no longer has any interest in saving them.

But does He want to save people who don’t WANT to be saved? It is observed on this thread that God will not FORCE any knee to bow. Doesn’t that same theorized unwillingness of God to snuff out our free will apply to saving us?

An 1873 tract amazon.com/Doomed-saved-discourse-Anniversary-Clerkenwell/dp/B0008CTXHQwas titled “Doomed to be saved”.

The special challenge to absolute Universalism, (the theology that EVERYONE eventually gets out of Hell) in my view, comes down to “for ever and ever” in Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. I can deal with the references to “for ever”, where aionos means “age”. But “ages of ages” inescapably, so far as I can determine, means what the English word “forever” means.

And yet the Universalist view that many, if not most, are finally released from Hell, I find supported by many verses. But not all will WANT to go to Heaven to abide with God whom they hate, where they are restricted from hurting others.

So what is the solution? I have developed the theory that the Shed Blood of Jesus is offered even in Hell, but many will reject God forever. After all, we know it is possible, though incomprehensible, for humans to turn against God, light, truth, love, cleanliness, self discipline, success, and everything else that is good. If a soul can choose such darkness even for a moment, what will happen between now and eternity to keep him from shooting himself in the foot forever?

My theory is posted at saltshaker.us/Hell-Fire

I am driven to this by “for ever and ever”. I came to this bulletin board looking for perspectives of this but did not find it. Please contact me, if you are willing, at DaveLeach (at) Saltshaker.US.


#17

Hi Dave. I think the Biblical descriptions of Hell (and Hades) are metaphorical - NOT literal. Actually, the metaphorical position is fully explored in Four Views on Hell. It’s a position I fully agree with - as a starting point. :exclamation:

I had to address the forever part on this forum, in regards to Satan being tormented forever and ever at Satan and Revelations.

I like to embrace the Inclusivist and the Purgatorial Conditionalist positions. It’s better addressed in a Universal Restorationist / Conditionalist hybrid position. It’s best described or expanded on at Is Hell Eternal Punishment, Eternal Death or Disciplinary Restoration?. The author talks about a holding place. A lower and an upper part of Hades. Before being thrown into the Lake of Fire (which he and I, view as the Eastern Orthodox position - being in the presence of God). :slight_smile:

And here is an article sentence I like:

Of course, one solution to the problem of universalism and free will, is a position of hard theological determinism. Someone has actually proposed such a theory - on this forum. I call it “Plan 9 from the Matrix”, based upon the movie “Plan 9 from Outer Space” by Ed Wood and the Matrix movie trilogy. But I proposed a theory ** just as sound**, at P-Zombies and Universalism :exclamation: :laughing: .

And in both theories, there’s probably more that’s wrong, then there is - in the Wizard of Oz movie: :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=Wka3yoC-cLA


#18

Oh come on Randy. The wizard of Oz is one of my favorite movies. Loved it since I was a kid.


#19

I love it to, St. Micheal. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t contain filming inconsistencies. But to be fair, the same can be said for most films.

In fact, click on the link youtube.com/watch?v=Wka3yoC-cLA. YouTube will display on the right side, other films where errors are talked about (i.e. Titanic and Cinderella). :exclamation: :slight_smile:


#20

Okay Randy. I’ll check it. My movies don’t have to be perfect though.