I’m not sure if I’ve asked this question before here so I’ll just start with this.
What is the nature of revelation to the gentile/pagan world?
“I send rain on the just and the unjust”, rain is commonly used for His Word. “washing by the water of the word”.
Sherman’s bullseye analogy seems useful here.
The reason I ask the above question is that the Bible is loaded with references to pagan mythology and much of the pagan myth is similar to the Bible.There seems to be a few basic ideas of why:
Satan knew God’s story and corrupted it, all mythology is evil. That was my understanding growing up.
The bible and mythology pull from the same sources and the bible is on par with mythology. Probably the prevailing secular view taught in schools and college
The ancient people passed down the stories of great men and the gods of mythology are stories of men that became deified, many of which are the heroes from the bible. (Origins of pagan Idolatry by Faber, and Two Babylons by Hislop)
The gods are real beings, possibly the sons of God, Divine Council, Angels, Nephilim etc.
The bible offers a polemic against many of the false gods.
There’s probably more, and please fill me in if you have thoughts. My current view is probably a mixture of 3 and 5. The origins of pagan idolatry is quite interesting, and free online. The basic thing is that all the gods are basically a rehashing of Adam and his 3 sons, and Noah and his 3 sons, this was put in place by Nimrod at Babel, and Nimrod is said to be those gods.
But thats not my main point here. There are some interesting “coincidences” and words/concepts associated with mythological figures. For instance:
Moses went up on Mt. Nebo to look into the promised land, and thats where he died. The god Nebo or Nabu (Naboo in Star wars universe for Auggy and Melchizedek) was the god of scribes and writing, and kept the tablets of destiny. Hmmm that kind of sounds like Moses.
Abram is Ab+Raam=exalted father. Raam, raama, is the exact name of the Hindu god. Stephen Jones believes that the saca clan is from the name of Isaac, and the saca clan happens to be the clan buddha comes from, who is supposed to be an avatar of Raama. There are some people who feel the historic buddha is a biblical person, as he came to reform the polytheistic paganism, and is maybe the same person as zoroaster. I know this is quite convoluted and there are some timeline issues here, I can’t remember everything I’ve researched on this. Faber says that the saca clan was nimrods clan, I have some corroborating evidence for this if anyone is interested, but I’m veering down a rabbit trail now.
Baal was called the storm rider in Ugaritic myth. The son of man in Daniel is called the storm rider. The NET bible says this is a polemic.
Baal=lord, baal’s symbol is the cross, which is a sungod symbol. Sacred name folks say that we shouldn’t use the word lord because of the verse “you will call me ishi, you will no longer call me baali” you will call me husband, no longer master. This is also an argument used against Jesus being God.
Joseph married the daughter of the priest of On. On is the sun-god (or the priesthood of the sun-god amen-ra). Joseph is a type of Christ and He marries the church, which the root of the word church MAY come from Circe, the daughter of the sun-god (I’m not trying to get into a firefight over this again).
Some words that are names of pagan gods.
Hebrew:
Yam= the sea
Mot=death
Greek:
Aster=star
Uranus=heaven
Hades=grave
I could add more, like Chronus is very similar to Abraham. Many people think Hercules is Shem, as he (the original hercules) is closely related to Set, the one who killed Osiris (possibly Nimrod the originator of the sun-god myth according to #3 above).
This is a very murky subject, and I can’t find much quality info on it. If anyone has some light to shed that would be great.
I don’t know a lot about this. What you’ve said is really interesting. The only light I might be able to add is that the word “church” isn’t in the bible. It’s “ekklesia,” which refers to any particular group called out to assemble for one reason or another. You might say “gathering of the called out ones.”
You could be right about the origin of the word church, however the story I heard was that it was from “kirke,” a germanic word which actually does refer to the building in which the ekklesia was assembling at the time the KJV was made, and that KJ himself required the word ekklesia be translated “church.” Now keep in mind I’m just repeating what I’ve read and haven’t done a personal study on this for myself. But . . . for what it’s worth.
Looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say.
Thanks Cindy. We had a very heated conversation about this in the past. My point was that the word church is (possibly)pagan and shouldn’t be used, especially when you look at Circe the goddess. I don’t want to rehash old wounds, and my point of putting it in here is that if that is the proper etymology, maybe there’s some connection. Also considering that Josephs wife was Egyptian, and Physical Jerusalem is associated with egypt, Babylon. I believe most of the church to be Babylon.
But, Ephraim came from that marriage, and he had the birthright of Israel. So this may be pointing to the manchild being born, that is caught up to the throne, the second coming of Christ in the unveiled Sons.
hopefully this can remain civil, as i’m finding it very interesting! but i’m not in a position at the moment to add to this, so i will read and enjoy.
thanks, redhot. this kind of thing is right up my alley
though it can turn into strange conspiracy theories, i think it can be useful to see similarities and parallels between the Bible and Pagan sources.
also, it can help to address some of the modern criticisms that the Bible is re-hashing myths known to other cultures. if we’re armed with some of our own research we can hold our own in such conversations.
also it does other cultures a service in that instead of just sweeping aside their stories and teachings, we look for the common truths that we share, and maybe even fill in some gaps of our own (though i appreciate that is risky!). Christianity does not have a monopoly on truth, and we’d do well to remember that. Jesus is the only Truth we have for sure, and He (IMO) wishes to redeem all cultures.
Jesus is the light that lightens EVERY man. If thats the case then what light of Him do the nations have? In the past I would argue against the trinity because the pagan trinity was around loooong before the christian trinity was “revealed” (I’m still up in the air on it), but many have said that the pagans were quick to accept christianity because they already had many of the tenets in place, just highly perverted.
I read a book a few years back that got me pointed down this path called Eternity in their Hearts. It was written by a missionary who had collected stories from other missionaries about the fact that they would go to these pagan peoples and they would tell them about YHWH, and they would all say yes we know about that God, he’s the high god, the spirit in the sky. Our people worshipped him long ago, but were fooled by demons and now worship them. Thats the gist I remember, its been quite a few years. I picked it up a couple months ago, but only read a chapter, which was the opening about Paul at Mars Hill (not driscolls church ) and the monument to the unknown god.
Also there was a video I watched a bit ago by a guy in Singapore about the chinese language, and the word pictures in there that point to YHWH and His plan for redemption. Some of that stuff was in the book also.
I’ll keep adding to this if people are interested, and please if any of you are reading and even have a little to add do it. I am NO expert in this field, and it is murky waters, so one little tidbit might be enough to spur something. I’ve done a bit of searching and am not satisfied with most of the info I find, they usually fall into #1 or #2 of the OP which I find to be the least credible options, although I’m open to persuasion there also.
Great topic! This website might also be of interest: Christ the Tao
"]I found that even many Asian Christians see Christianity as an alien way, a Western faith imported complete with wooden pews, 19th Century hymns, and (most ghastly of all) the ubiquitous organ. Christianity is “Yang Jiao,” Chinese often say, “foreign teaching.”
Yet the more I have studied non-Christian cultures and beliefs of various cultures and periods, the more I have become persuaded that the truth is just the opposite. Jesus is the Tao that Confucius and Lao Zi were looking for, the Rta of Indian philosophers or Purusa of the Rig Veda, the Divine Logos of St. the Apostle John. John’s famous words about that Logos are correctly translated as follows in Chinese: “In the beginning was the Tao. And the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God. . . All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. . . .”
And then, as if to wake all the philosophers and day-dreamers among us up:
Yes, this was the version I had handed down to me as well. I think satan, whatever “he”/ “it” is, is much more clever than this. Our own hearts are deceitful, according to scripture.
So here’s what I think. This argument comes as a defense against the idea that the bible is actually just another mythology, but the reason this is thought to be the case in the first place, is because of all the actual pagan ideas that have been imported into what the scripture actually says. The true deception is that the scripture says things that are close enough to mythology to confuse the two, when in reality the actual teaching of scripture is quite different, yet has been distorted by the very folks who would make argument #1!
As a wise man once said, history is His story (and lo, the saying became a cliche’!) Nevertheless true, I believe. Many cultures have a flood myth because there was a flood. They all have the story, passed down from their ancestors. The Chinese character for . . . flood, I believe, or something like that . . . is basically eight people on a boat. At one of our local Chinese restaurants, there’s a print of eight people variously navigating together through and over a trackless sea.
This all brings to mind a scene from The Last Battle (yes, children’s literature is perfectly at my level!) in which the Tarkan (bad guy) devastates the secretly watching King Tirian (good guy) by telling an almost truth to the crowd. “By mixing a little truth with it, they have made their lie a great deal stronger.” By corrupting the Story and garbing it with paganism, the enemy makes the truth itself seem a lie.
But not to fear. Aslan wins in the end – and wins bigger that Lewis believed, IMO.
I find it interesting. The idea of the plan of Yehovah written in the stars. If it is true, and it does seem an overwhelming possibility, the zodiac would provide a framework of credibility to establish that Yehovah is indeed the Creator of the world, with a plan for His creation. It could also serve as a framework for the establishment of “foreign gods” made to look like the Almighty. That being said, there could be a lot of different thoughts and beliefs established from Adam, through the flood and the spreading out of the people as they repopulated the earth, etc.
Translation seems to be an issue too. Even our translation “Jesus”, I think the name is a translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin then to English. It means nothing except the definition we imbue it with, which in some ways, leaves christianity establishing a “new” god created in the likeness of man. In Hebrew, His name means Yehovah is Salvation. Now that means something! Anyway, I could see how the translations (in writing or orally) could create different ideas that seem similar.
I also believe that there are angels who have fallen and seek to set up a kingdom. I think that kingdom would have to parallel Yehovah’s kingdom and look like His, otherwise who would leave the all powerful, loving God to serve demons? I also don’t think these beings have creative power to “top” Yehovah or establish a whole different kingdom concept, only copy what they already define as “kingdom”. This is also why they use about 99% truth with a tiny 1% of poison. It becomes a double edged sword, those seeking the true Creator, find Him in the light of the truth written to deceive the masses. No matter where the person is or what religion they are involved in - they always find what they truly seek.
I had also thought that the 7 “churches” of Revelation might be people out of different religions that are seeking/have found the true Logos/Tao.
Possibly, those who are not seeking Truth, are “following after myths” (the 1% of poison) contained in religions (not totally excluding christianity). Ultimately, I think all who seek Truth will find it and throw out the false, leaving them searching and learning more in relationship with their Creator than ever possible within the religion. I had also thought that those “following after myths” will be in Jerusalem worshiping anti messiah. I think that is the last great delusion - when those are asked to give up body and soul to become part of the collective conscience of [anti] “christ”.
These are all kind of just raw thoughts. You said to just throw stuff out there, right?
Thanks Kelly. Yep the mazzaroth/zodiac is also one of the “origin” points for the myth I believe. That story has been told since the beginning of man. Thanks for your thoughts.
The book “The Origins of Pagan Idolatry” by Faber he states that the true religion was corrupted by Nimrod. Since the people at that time were only a couple generations from Noah, the corruption couldn’t be completely blatant. The peoples connection to God through the past world(s) is Noah and his 3 sons, and Adam and his 3 sons. What they did then was deify (or demonize as he calls it) Adam, Cain, Able, Seth. These then transmigrated to become Noah, Ham, Japeth, and Shem. Adam=Noah, Seth=Shem. The Hindu’s call them menu or manu (where we get our word man). In their cosmogony then Adam becomes the god who all of creation is formed out of which is the story we see in the pagan religions. His sons are all a representation of him, or they resolve into him. Then at the end of that world it is destroyed by a deluge where only the new menu is saved, but what is actually happening is the god is dying (representing the world), and he is put into an ark, or a cow, or a lotus, or an egg, and then is reborn, which then creates the new age. This happens over and over, in cycles of successive worlds. What you’re left with are trinities of gods that are really an emination of Adam/Noah the father, Odin=Uranus=Jupiter=Atum (sounds like adam). the trinity is Isis, Osiris,Horus represent his children. since the father god was originally a hermaphrodite (male and female he created them) the term hermaphrodite is hermes+aphrodite. so having a woman in there is no big whoop, and really the male and female gods all are really just a part of the father/mother god=Adam=menu=Atum=Brahm.
His idea of how it all began is that after the flood originally people would work fairly harmoniously together, but eventually a politically minded person would arise, and would rather subjugate people than work for a living. He would likely be a hunter (Nimrod) since he could hone his people killing skills on animals. Eventually people would start to revolt so he would have to create an armed force, likely from fellow tribesman (Cucrapes), and they would train by hunting animals. Eventually this first king would realize that force isn’t the best way to control his subjects so he would invent religion to continue his subjugation. This would require priests, also likely from his tribe also. What you would be left with is a tribe of warrior priests controlling the rest of humanity. The other tribes would become merchant/artizan class or worker class. The caste system is born. Then as the people dispersed to other parts of the world they would go as tribes, but with a nucleus of warrior priests to rule them.
thus the pagan religion was created at babel and propagated through the rest of the world, with only minor changes between cultures.
"Take for example the ancient pagan god Cronus. This early Phoenician author Sanchoniathon states that Cronus went about the world establishing settlements and colonies. He gave the best part of Greece to his daughter Athena. But he did more than that. Sanchoniathon said, “Cronus offered up his only son as a sacrifice and circumcised himself, and forced his allies to do the same.”
“For Cronus, whom the Phoenicians call Il [the word “Il” is phonetically the Semitic “God” or sometime “Bull”] a man who after his death was deified and instated in the planet which now bears his name.”
The particular planet that the Phoenicians called “Cronus” was the one the Romans referred to as “Saturn.” It was well known that the day of Saturn was Saturday (the weekly Sabbath of the Jews). And note this. Sanchoniathon went on in his description of Cronus by saying that one of his sons was called Ieoud — clearly a corrupt take-off on the Israelitish tribe of “Judah.”
Sanchoniathon said that a man by the name of Hypsuranius (a name signifying High-Heaven) took up an abode in the city of Tyre.
“And he fell into enmity with his brother Usous, who first made clothing for the body of the skins of the wild beasts which he could catch.”
It is plain that this Usous of the Phoenicians is the biblical “Esau” — the brother of Jacob. Note that the Bible says that Esau was a hairy man (like that of an animal), and that Jacob received the blessings and birthright of Esau by deceiving his father by putting on animal skins (Genesis 27). Even the prestigious Dictionary of Religion and Ethics (vol. XI. p. 179) states that there is no question but that this Usous within the Phoenician pantheon was the biblical “Esau.”
“Sanchoniathon said that the god Usous (Esau) was the one who taught the Phoenicians the art of ship-building and navigation. The other name for Esau was Edom (meaning “Red”). The Greek name for “Red” was Erythras, and it was recognized in ancient times that a King Erythras was one who made sailing vessels. 7 The Red Sea near Egypt and also the arm of the Indian Ocean called the Persian Gulf was named after this King Erythras (Edom). Usous was the one who inspired the Phoenicians on the Mediterranean to do the same. Really, both were the same man! Jewish beliefs also thought that Esau helped to colonize Tyre and that his descendants became some of the Phoenicians who settled North Africa and parts of Spain. 8”
THE HISTORICAL BUDDHA. Buddhism originated in Northern India around 500 BC. It sprang from the teachings of the Historical Buddha – an actual historical personage. Before he became a Buddha (literally “enlightened one”), he was known as Gautama Siddhartha, or Prince Siddhartha, for he was born the son of King Suddhodana of the Sakya Clan, whose people then inhabited an area of India now located in present-day Nepal. His family name was Gautama and his first name was Siddhartha. Shaka is the Japanese abbreviation of the Sanskrit term Sakyamuni, which literally means “Sage of the Sakya.” In China, his contemporaries were Confucius and Lao-tzu (the founder of Chinese Taoism), and slightly later in the West comes Plato (approximately 427 - 347 BC). buddhist-artwork.com/statues … tuary.html
The Ikshvaku dynasty, in Puranic literature, was a mythical dynasty founded by** Ikshvaku, grandson of Vivasvan or Surya** and son of Vaivasvata Manu. This dynasty is also known as Sūryavaṁśa (the Solar dynasty). The important personalities belonging to this royal house are Harishchandra, Dilīpa, Sagara,[1] Raghu, Rama and Prasenajit. Although, both the Hindu Puranas and the Buddhist texts include Shuddodhana, Gautama Buddha and Rahula in their accounts of the Ikshvaku dynasty, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikshvaku_dynasty
“Suryavanshi” or Suryavamsa means a person belonging to this dynasty. This clan was the oldest and biggest Kshatriya/Chattari clan of India which was also known by many synonyms as Adityavamsha (आदित्यवंश), Mitrawamsha (मित्रवंश), Arkawamsha (अर्कवंश), Raviwamsha (रविवंश), etc. The early Suryavanshis considered Sun-god (‘Surya’, ‘Aditya’ or ‘Arka’) as their kul-devta (clan God) and mainly practised sun-worship.The capital of Solar race was ancient Ayodhya.The clan founder,** Vivasvan or Vaivaswat Manu, also known as Arka-tanaya (अर्क तनय) or son of Arka (Surya), is supposed to have lived coeval with the origin of the world. **The name Vivaswan literally means master of the rays. That is, The Sun or Sun God. The first historically important king of this dynasty was Vivaswan’s grandson Ikshvaku, so the dynasty is also known as the Ikshvaku dynasty.[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suryavansha
ksh=kush, kshatriya, ikshvaku
rama is supposedly the previous incarnation of buddha
kshatriya=kush these are still the warrior caste in india (remember the cush were warrior/priests)
the sun-god lived coeval with the origin of the world, and one name is arka --> ark?
surya= zero in chaldee -->zero-asshur–>zoroaster
I am fully aware, that Sir William Jones places the origin of Buddhism no higher than about a thousand years before the Christian era; that he supposes the system to have been introduced by a younger Buddha, whom he distinguishes from that earlier Buddha who is placed by the Hindoo records in the age of the deluge; and that he conceives the younger Buddha or Sacya to be the Sesac of Scripture, whom he makes to conquer the whole country between Egypt and Hindostan and to promulge wherever he was successful the then novel doctrine of the Buddhists. To this opinion I am unable to assent. The name indeed of Sesac is doubtless a name of Buddha, for Se-Sac denotes the illustrious Saca; and this fatal resemblance, as it has been not ill termed, seems to have been the chief thing, or at least one chief thing that gave rise to the opinion. Such a coincidence of names however will by no means prove the point: Sesac, if I mistake not, received his appellation merely in honour of the god Saca or Se-Saca, agreeably to a custom very generally prevalent in the gentile world; [1] and, though I pretend not positively to say how far he might have pushed his conquests, there is certainly no scriptural evidence that he passed beyond the limits of Judea. He is simply represented, as taking the fenced cities of Rehoboam and as pillaging the temple of Jerusalem, and then to all appearance as returning with his booty into Egypt. [2] Hence there seems to me, so far as we have any authentic account of his actions, to be just as little reason for identifying him with a
1 Thus Nebuchadnezzar, Esar-Haddon, and Belshazzar, were all called after the gods venerated by their fathers.
2 See 2 Chron. xii. 1-9.
{Page 88} younger Sacya who was the first promulgator of Buddhism, as with the fabulously victorious Sesostris. The evidence for the remote antiquity of Buddhism rests upon exactly the same foundation as that for the remote antiquity of Brahmenism. There is scarcely a country, in which we do not find both systems more or less blended together: and Buddha, as much as Siva or Osiris, under his various names of Buddha, Saca, Taut, Teut, Thoth, Bod, Wod, Hermaya, Hermes, or Mercolis, has been worshipped from Japan in the east to Ireland in the west. The theory of Sir William Jones is inadequate to account for this circumstance: no conquests, which a king of Egypt could make, and which after all it remains to be proved that he did make; could have spread his name and novel theology over the face of the whole globe; I say name, because, if I do not misunderstand Sir William, Buddha first received his title of Sacya from the circumstance of Sesac’s being venerated as a new incarnation of Buddha. This opinion however, if it be the opinion of that able writer, is most certainly an error.** The appellation Saca or compoundedly Se-Saca existed before the time of the Egyptian prince, and was communicated from the god to a great tribe of his Cuthic worshippers, who were thence called Sacas or Sachim or Saxons. Some of these Sachim formed a part of the Indian Shepherd- kings; who once conquered Egypt, and who afterwards founded the kingdom of African Ethiopia or Cusha-dwip without: for we find a detachment of them expressly mentioned with their brethren the Cushim, as serving in the army of Sesac. [1] If then there was a whole tribe of Sachim or Sacas in the days of Sesac, both the name and the worship of Saca must inevitably have been prior to that prince. Thus, in whatever light the question be viewed, we cannot, I think, ascribe a more recent origin to Buddhism than the dispersion from Babel.**
1 2 Chron. xii. 3. The word is expressed by our translators Sukkiim after the Masoretic punctuation; but it is just as properly pronounced Sachiim, which is the plural form of Sach or Sachi. In our language the plural of Sach would be Sachs.
The twenty two Buddhas, like the fourteen Menus, may all be reduced to two, Adam and Noah: for Buddha is the very same person as Menu. A later Buddha is described as living at the time of the flood, as being the sovereign prince in the belly of the symbolical fish, and as marrying Ila the daughter of Menu-Satyavrata who was preserved with seven companions in an ark when the whole earth was inundated. But Menu is also said to have espoused his own daughter: therefore Buddha must be the same as Menu. Accordingly, as Menu and his three sons are allowed to be an incarnation of the Hindoo Unity and Trimurti: so Buddha is at once confessed to be an Avatar of Vishnou, and pronounced to be no other than the mystic Om by which name the Trimurti is wont to be designated. Buddha however is here acknowledged not to be any real and proper god: and his diluvian character proves him to be the patriarch Noah.
This kind of stuff is sooo fascinating to me! Thanks for posting so much on it, Redhot! A lot of this stuff is what I’d like to ask the LORD when I’m in heaven-or get to watch the replay, so to speak Then again, maybe in the presence of His glory this stuff won’t seem so interesting. I’m gonna betray my good frozen-chosen leanings and ask you…how do you see the Nephillim, pyramids on different continents, stuff like that? I read a book a while back called Fingerprints of the Gods. Now I lean towards more of ancient civilisations type of history, not the Sumer 7,000 BC is where it all began, but further. Keep in mind, I’m not gonna die on the hill for this stuff, and I haven’t fleshed out any doctrinal contradictions-so I’m ok with speculation in this arena. Thanks again!
Matt, at this moment (and I swing wildly from side to side) I am in an allegorical phase, so I see the nephilim as the sons of seth and the daughters of cain. But I really don’t know, thats one of the reasons I rehashed this topic (I posted this stuff and more on tentmakers board a while ago). I was getting deep into this and it was causing me all kinds of disturbance.
Since I was probably 12 or so I have had a question about the cherubim, and the symbolism of the tabernacle. I remember reading about them, and that they along with bulls are found throughout temples in the ancient middle east, and that the tabernacle and its furnishings was quite similar to egyptian, babylonian temples. Well this bothered me, seeing as I was brought up to believe that all that was of the devil, and why would God use things that are devilish. I never found a good answer and this created doubts when people would claim the bible is myth.
Then when I was in my early 20’s I found this thing called the internet. And I read more about the nephilim, fallen angels, aliens, illuminati, etc etc. I got pretty deep into conspiracy, until my mentor reminded me “God is in control”. I put these things away again. And frankly there were too many doubts going on that I couldn’t face at that time, because well I didn’t want to be wrong, or led astray and then go to hell.
Then last year I was given the revelation of Universal Reconciliation and all the sudden I was able to search out other lines of thought without fear.
The hypothesis I had been developing over all those years was the cherubim were the inspiration for the pagan gods. Since Adam and Eve would have seen them, they would have surely told their children about them, and on down the line. Notice God didn’t have to describe them to Moses, He just told him to fashion them. Then I read that the Israelites worshipped the cherubim, they even named them Moloch and Chiun, Jupiter and Saturn respectively, Stephen mentions them in his speech before he’s martyred, which comes from Amos 4 IIRC. Now that really got me going down the path. I spent a lot of time researching this stuff, and it was starting to become an obsession almost (I tend to be an all or nothing guy).
I was looking for more biblical witness, and thought of the verse " we see through a glass darkly" so I looked it up. I was given to see something with eyes to see, and ears to hear:
1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."
Jas 1:22 Now become doers of the word, and not only listeners, beguiling yourselves."
Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a listener to the word and not a doer, this one simulates a man considering the face he inherited in a mirror;"
Jas 1:24 for he considers himself and has come away, and immediately forgot what kind he was."
Jas 1:25 Now he who peers into the perfect law, that of freedom, and abides, not becoming a forgetful listener, but a doer of the work, this one will be happy in his doing."
These are the two instances of the word mirror(esoptron) in the bible.
esoptron <2072>
esoptron esoptron
Pronunciation: es’-op-tron
Origin: from 1519(Eis= In or into) and a presumed derivative of
3700 Optanomai:
to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and
thus differing from 991, which denotes simply voluntary observation;
and from 1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual
vision; while 2300, and still more emphatically its intensive 2334,
signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and 4648 a
watching from a distance):-appear, look, see, shew self.
If you look at Optanomai most incidences of this word are seeing the risen Lord, here are some other examples:
Act 16:9
A vision appeared to Paul during the night: A Macedonian man was standing there 2 urging him, 3 “Come over 4 to Macedonia 5 and help us!”
1Ti 3:16
And we all agree, 1 our religion contains amazing revelation: 2 He 3 was revealed in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, 4 seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
1Jo 3:2
Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be 1 has not yet been revealed. We 2 know that 3 whenever 4 it 5 is revealed 6 we will be like him, because 7 we will see him just as he is. 8
Rev 1:7
(Look! He is returning with the clouds, 1 and every eye will see him, even 2 those who pierced him, 3 and all the tribes 4 on the earth will mourn because 5 of him. This will certainly come to pass! 6 Amen.) 7
Rev 11:19
Then 1 the temple of God in heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant was visible within his temple. And there were flashes of lightning, roaring, 2 crashes of thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. 3
Rev 12:1
Then 1 a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars. 2
1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."
So the word for mirror is to gaze at something remarkable INSIDE. What do we see but an enigma ( an obscure saying, enigma, riddle an obscure thing). We look with natural eyes, and what do we see? We hear a riddle
Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a listener to the word and not a doer, this one simulates a man considering the face he inherited in a mirror;"
Jas 1:24 for he considers himself and has come away, and immediately forgot what kind he was."
The word for kind is genesis. He forgot what his origin is
Eze 28:12 `Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And you have said to him:Thus said the Lord Yahweh:You are sealing up a measurement, Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."
Eze 28:13 In Eden, the garden of Elohim, you have been, Every precious stone your covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold, The workmanship of your tabrets, and of your pipes, In you in the day of your being produced, have been prepared."
Eze 28:14 You [are] an anointed cherub who is covering, And I have set you in the holy mount, Elohim you have been, In the midst of stones of fire you have walked up and down."
Eze 28:15 Perfect [are] you in your ways, From the day of your being produced, Till perversity has been found in you."
Eze 28:16 By the abundance of your merchandise They have filled your midst with violence, And you do sin, And I thrust you from the mount of Elohim, And I destroy you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire."
When I think of enigma or riddle I think of the Sphinx (the enigma of the Sphinx was very well known). What is a sphinx? A cherub? (I realize this takes a slight jump and doesn’t have total biblical support)
So to put it all together:
We look through a mirror with natural eyes trying to see the heavenly, if we hear the word and it does not cause the fruit=action, when we look in the mirror (gaze at something remarkable INSIDE) , we see an enigma (which is really something you hear). The sphinx tells the riddle, Sphinx=Cherub. The riddle is that we are the cherub who’s lost his covering. Our covering was precious stones (the word precious is only used of stones that cover the temple, or the breast plate, stone=chief cornerstone) If we don’t have eyes to see, if the word hasn’t vivified us, when we try to gaze into heaven all we see is our fleshly covering, we forget our genesis (where was mans origin?). We see beast=cherub with 4 faces (the word for cherub hear happens to appear 66 times). And so what do we do but worship the beast=cherub=carnal mind=our false covering=the veil covered in cherubs. Our original covering was the precious cornerstone.
Eze 28:12 `Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And you have said to him:Thus said the Lord Yahweh:You are sealing up a measurement, Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
"Eze 43:10 "As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, so that they will be ashamed of their sins and measure the pattern.
this word for measure/pattern only occurs in the above 2 instances
The pattern of the temple with Christ who is our covering, full of wisdon and perfect in beauty
2Co 3:18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord’s glory, are being transformed (transfigured) into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."
this is the only other incidence of mirror in the nt with the same name base as optanomai
When our face is covered we see the enigma, when its uncovered we see the Lord’s glory.
I read an article which I don’t remember where that was, that they found in a cave that the sphinx was a symbol of the two ends of the zodiac. That it symbolized the connection of the lion and virgo IIRC. The cherubim are the N, S, E, W, points of the zodiac, the encampment of Israel had the 4 heads of the cherubim, Judah-lion, Dan-Eagle, Ephraim-bull, Reuban-man. They “covered the tabernacle” by surrounding it. The cherubim were embroidered all over the veil, which we know to be Jesus’ flesh. The cherubim on the mercy seat covered. The cherubim guarded the way to the garden, which is the holy of holies. The cherubim carried the glory of the Lord in Ezekiel, we carry the glory of the Lord. The 4 gospels correspond to one head of the cherubim, those gospels “contain” the Word.
Now if you take all that + the idea that all the pagan gods were just men starting with Nimrod (Faber’s Origins). The grandest idol of all is self.
Back to the original question, the nephilim were offspring of the sons of God. We are the sons of God. “All creation waits with eager longing for the revealing (unveiling! the veil is the covering/cherubim) of the sons of God.” That word revealing is the same word as used in “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him” Rev 1:1.
Sorry I couldn’t copy this pdf I made, and get it to format right, so I’ve attached it. The bottom 2 pages are the most relevant I think, the top page is just following word likenesses, and unless you’ve read Origins of Pagan Idolatry it may not make much sense (probably like my last post )
It mentions Thoth, or Hermes/Mercury, which Faber says is Kush, Noah’s grandson, Nimrods father, he was supposedly the one who created the false religion, and if you look at the myth behind Mercury it makes sense.
Nebo=thoth, Mt. Nebo is where Moses died. He is the scribe god.
Nimrod may be an insult and not his actual name. MR in Hebrew is rebel, as in Mary which means rebellion.
Mars MR, Mercury MR cush saca idol.pdf (171 KB)
The mixture and worship of all the ancient “gods” is exactly what my family’s pagan roots are all about. I have wondered about it a lot too. It is confusing sometimes. I had thought that while the true God used bulls,etc in temples, the idol worship made the bulls gods. So they worship the created thing instead of the Creator. Kind of weird how with Yehovah, bulls were scarified for the sin of the people but, in idol worship the people are sacrificed to the bull gods.
I love what you are saying and it seems like we’re searching out many of the same questions. Thanks again!
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