I just joined today and did a search but nothing came up on the subject of near death experiences. People who actually die and leave there body and either go to hell or in most cases go toward the light and meet God, angels, people who have died who they know. I have had an out of body experience myself, in which Jesus was present to me. I know that the bible is the final authority, but should we dismiss these experiences. Some say it’s because the brain is starved of oxygen, but they actually become clinically dead and can see their dead body’s. Would like your views on this please. Thanks
I believe, as anything else, these may be valid or invalid. One thing that makes me suspicious of near death experiences is the fact that these people can supposedly see their body from the outside. Truth is, you only see anything at all because your brain processes impulses from the eyes and sends them to you. Without the brain, you are just a floating (if that is even proper. I don’t know if “I’s” literally travel in space, they probably do not. In fact, they’re more likely to be in a box somewhere far far away) “I”, but you shouldn’t be able to see anything until someone plugs you in somewhere else. And I see no reason why such a plug in would leave you shortly outside of your current body. You should either already be receiving new information into a new receptor set, or you shouldn’t see anything. Near death experiences, being what they are, I’m more likely to say it is a self-induced hallucination, especially if someone tells me they saw their body from the outside.
God has no reason to show you what “Hell” or “Heaven” looks like, in my opinion. I’ve heard various descriptions of these places, but truth is, the Bible is not very clear on their mere existence, let alone their content, yet the descriptions often mysteriously coincide with some pagan ideas we have floating around.
I won’t say that nobody has ever seen anything in the beyond, because I have no such knowledge. But I remain strongly on the skeptical side.
Hi Paul,
There has actually been at least a couple threads discussing these things – maybe someone can point you to those.
Sonia
Bird, you’re big on the speculations here and not so much on the research. I say that bluntly because I think we gotta tread sensitively when it comes to someone’s experiences. I have plenty of experiences of my own, and speculations about them have never come close to understanding or explaining them.
NDE’s are eminently possible. It comes down to a fundamental assumption about where “physical” perception is actually rooted. This is where my Matrix Thought Experiment comes into play. It’s not only impossible to disprove that our perceptions begin in the supernatural, but naturalistic explanations end up being merely circular and self-referential.
This, coupled with the fact that people who were braindead at the time have experienced NDE’s solidifies the case (along with standard application of string theory, of course).
I understand your skeptcism about floating spirits as I used to feel the same way about that. But then I realized how closely intertwined our spirits and bodies are. Now it makes little sense to me to think that our fits are “out there” somewhere. heh. Especially if “spirits” are really just bodies of energy.
One of my favorite NDE’s is George Ritchie’s. They all report a loss of any sense of time, which is consistent with the ancient meaning of aionios.
And yes, we actually have discussed NDE’s here, although we might’ve used the words “afterlife experiences.” I would really love to pick your brain on your experience, dude! Please, please, stick around… make yourself at home, tell us all about it. 
I’ve had a sort of hellish experience here on earth… my spirit was in hell while I was experiencing this earthly plane. And by that same token, I’ve spent much time in heaven as well.
I believe they are (or can be)real, although I haven’t examined any of them. The spirit is the source, this world is like an illusion, its not the reality, its only a shadow.
I happen to remember being born. Its not supposed to be possible because our brains aren’t fully developed. Well its my oldest and strongest memory.
“Speculations” is how half our modern science was discovered… it’s really the only valid thing in a topic like this.
And, honestly, I don’t see any research from you here. The research that I have seen is not in favor of NDE’s being visions from God, no more than it is in favor of Schizophrenia being caused by demons.
As I’ve said, some may be valid. But, I’m skeptical, and I will not buy it. Someone’s feelings have no bearing on that. I do not recall offending or attacking anybody. If a person starts claiming someone has a demon and they need an exorcism, I should be worried about feelings? No, I won’t be. If they want to kill someone because of some idea they had in their head I am going to call them insane first and ask questions later. And a lot of bad stuff was done and said due to both demons and NDE’s.
I’m not sure what you mean. Yes, people report them, so obviously they’re possible as events themselves.
I didn’t realize that all the scientific study directed at understanding of the biology and neurology of the brain is an assumption. Everything we know points to the fact that the brain is the generator of the physical perception. If not, why have a brain, and why does damage to it causes damage to our physical perception? If you are going to say it’s a doubled simulation, to me that’s approaching “Satan made dinosaurs”.
I’m not sure what you mean by Matrix Thought Experiment. Google showed nothing.
First, the word supernatural is not a valid term. Supernatural just stands for “shit we do not understand”, but ALL events are 100% natural relative to their ruleset. Supernatural is an oxymoron.
My explanation involves a definition of an “I”. That’s not naturalistic, most naturalists reject the existence of any I.
I’m sorry, what case? I’m not sure what you are trying to prove? That NDE’s do really go to Hell and Heaven? That there is such a thing as a floating spirit in space with vision abilities?
String theory? Really? STRING THEORY?
I’m not sure what you mean by this. “How closely intertwined our spirits and bodies are”. I’m not sure what your definition of spirit is, and I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.
Well, it makes perfect sense to me. Especially if Earth is a simulation, there’s nowhere else for us to be. I’m definitely not sure about spirits being “body of energy”, since energy is a definition of Earth, thus merely part of the potential simulation…
Welcome to the group, Paul 
Like Bird, I’m somewhat skeptical of NDEs, though not for the same reasons. On the one hand, I’ve never had one or known anyone who’s had one, so who am I to say? On the other hand, I’ve read several (actually quite a few) that did line up with Pagan pictures of the afterlife, and that’s made me wonder whether they’re all that credible. Not that the people experiencing them are lying or delusional, but rather that they may be confusing the dreams of a mind floating in and out of this life as reality. I remember being confused about some of my dreams as a child. They were so real . . . and a person under extreme physical duress may also experience this sort of legitimate confusion.
I guess the thing that’s been most off-putting is the sudden celebrity of new authors who have had a NDE which is so badly non-correspondent with scripture as to be ludicrous (if only people reading the book ever KNEW any scripture to speak of). As it is, with people so easily deceived, I hate to have this sort of popular literature out there giving wrong ideas. Were the authors sincere? Eeeh . . . I really wonder. After all, they’re making quite a good nest egg on this sort of thing. Some of them surely are, but I gotta say, not all of them.
Now beyond that, I do believe that God gives us legitimate dreams and visions, and what better time for that than a time of such severe stress as an NDE to take down some of our natural rational defenses (if necessary)? So the NDE need not correspond with objective realities, but may in fact be filled with potent and meaningful symbolism. It will of course consist of exactly what God intends it to consist of, but He may leave it to us to ask Him the meaning. Many of my “god dreams” end up meaning something completely other than what I had originally expected. If I didn’t take the time to ask Him, I’d end up with some shallow and probably inaccurate interpretation.
Or for all I know, it may be precisely what it seems to be. At any rate, I’d be very interested in seeing what you have to say – hearing your experience. Would you be willing to share?
Blessings and welcome!
Cindy
I became a Christian at 18. It was fantastic until i started going to a Charismatic Church. I started to struggle and get depressed about my sexuality. As I had being gay before my conversion and i repented of it. But i felt my self drifting back toward it. It made my almost suicidal. I thought am i supposed to live like this for the rest of my life. i asked/prayed God to take me home i couldn’t cope any longer. I went to bed that night like this. During my sleep. I began to feel an exstacy and joy and love that was wonderful. I kept saying JESUS, while at the same time i knew i was being lifted up. Eventually i could see myself in bed and i was looking down on myself. Then i was walking in the dark and Jesus was holding my right hand. I felt wonderful. Suddenly I was alone in my room. But was in the air. It felt very real and life like. I moved towards the window and went outside and moved around the garden. It was real and i felt a bit wierd…how could this be happening. i wasn’t afraid. But not long after i was back in my bedroom and went back into my body. I woke up the next morning and remembered what had happened. Was it from God, i like to think so. Looking back on how it helped me. I have often understood it to mean that no matter what happens or where life throws at me. Jesus is with me holding my hand and guiding me along .
My aunt actually died on the operating table and was dead for several minutes. She had a brain anurism during a surgery for the same. She saw Jesus and heaven and wanted to stay but the Lord told her she had to return to raise her youngest son. The surgery went so badly that the docs, though they ressusitated her after her being dead some time, and after trimming a significant portion of her brain and just closing the skull so as to stop the bleeding. Docs did not expect her to live and if she did to be a vegitable. She awoke a couple of days later with no problems, and shared her experience. She just recently died some 35 years later.
Anyhow, the long and short of it is that I believe many of the testimonies of NDEs I’ve heard, even those who experience is kinda hellish. I believe that when people die they come into the full reality of the spiritual realm in which they already are a part of. Those who die in the kingdom of God come into the full reality of such. Those who die in the kingdom of darkness come into that full reality.
One of the most amazing things I’ve seen in my research though is the number of people who were either saved from the kingdom of darkness while being dead, coming back to life a radically changed person, or people who die, experience the full reality of this present evil age, are brought back to life and shortly therafter are saved. In fact, all that I’ve seen result in people being saved.
And then there are those who are saved, believers, who have a vision or out-of-body experience that is “hellish”. These experiences result in people getting saved to. It motivates them to share their faith in Christ, and in sharing their experience with other believers it motivates them to share their faith in Christ, which results in may people being saved. I believe though that what they are experiencing though is not the final destination of people, but it is a revelation of the Present Evil Age (Gal.1.4). People are currently in bondage to sin, slaves of evil from within and without, without hope and without God, bound in fear and tormented by evil spirits. It is from this Present Evil Age that Jesus saves us. And Jesus saving 100% in no way diminishes the reality of that evil; it only magnifies the power of the love of God and the glory of Jesus.
For example, the life-guard who saves 100 out of 100 who are drowning because of a boat capsizing, only glorifies the devotion and skill of the life-guard. It in no way diminishes the very real threat of death from drowning. And IF Jesus does not save someone, and IF people continue to exist when completely separated from God, then I suppose that person would continue to exist in this Present Evil Age and there would be no end of Evil, no end of tears, and Jesus would not be all in all!
Evidently, many people recalled events during out of body experiences while their brain was medically dead, which supports a conjecture of death consciousness. I hope to write more about this in the future, but I am swamped with other projects.
Let me ask… When was the last time anyone had a dream or vision and it was a ‘literal’ account of something in the Scripture? There is no discounting an experience, but seeing did you actually see what you think you saw? Visions and dreams come but they are not as they are.
If you dream of Hell, you are not be actually seeing or experiencing an actuality of Hell, but a metaphor for something in your life in which it is being revealed through the imagery of Hell. The real thing that is happening is that your witnessing a dream which is specifically speaking towards you. Therefore that Hell is in your mind, and that experience is speaking of your life presently. Something in your life is causing or experiencing Hell, your lifestyle, how you treat your spouse, family; your desires and your priorities, etc.
Though I don’t discount dreams (I am a dreamer, and I also experienced these prophet dreams and have had very accurate results interpreting them through the Scripture and my life) we also are warned to becareful:
**Deutoronomy 13:1-5 **If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (or a God you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jude 1:8
In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.
HI Paul
I just wanted to say that whatever your sexuality, it is a certain truth that God loves you just the same as He loves every other human bean He created. While it is not for me to tell you how you should live your life, I personally would say that being gay is not a sin you have to repent of, despite what some people might say.
Of course, if your sexuality really has changed, and you’re completely comfortable with that, then that’s great. But please don’t feel you have to ‘repent’ of being gay, just because you’re a Christian. There are many thousands - millions - of gay Christians, lots of them in the Church. Don’t forget, Paul, that Jesus spoke not one single word about this issue - he only taught us to love one another.
I am not gay myself, but I do have a gay brother, who I love dearly. And I can point you in the direction of lots of resources to help you be comfortable with being a gay Christian, if that’s what you want to be. But like I say, it’s your choice. Just be cool with whatever choice God leads you to make.
All the best.
Shalom
Johnny
Bird, it seems to me that your statement about having to have “receptors” connected to “see,” is invalidated by our dreams.
I am 100% gay! And i flirted with the idea of it not being a sin, got a few books to read on the subject which helped. But for the last few months i have lost that conviction, which i am not sure is a good idea. Because it just screwed up my mind with guilt. If it is wrong i can live with it but i would be happier if it wasn’t a sin. I’m confused about it really.
kind Regards
Paul
Paul,
It’s really between you and God. To me, the scriptures look like the act of gay sex is sin (I’m only looking at the New Testament), but I’d be the first to say that I don’t understand the social implications of the day, and I’ve no doubt missed some important nuances. That said, whether or not the act is sin, the struggle is not sin, anymore than the resisted desire to get drunk would be a sin. You are not a bad person just because you have a struggle.
If I were in your situation, this is what I would do. First I would do whatever I had to do to get myself to the place where I was ready to accept any answer God chose to give me. That’s easier to say than it is to do, but it’s absolutely essential if you want to hear from God and not from your own mind/desires/imagination. You have to be neutral on this, and that’s very difficult.
The thing is, whatever anyone else may say, one way or another, you, Paul, need to be absolutely certain within yourself that you are following Jesus. Anything that is not of faith is sin, and if you are violating your conscience, then you’re in sin even if the thing you do would NOT be sin in someone else. So you need to hear from God, and having done that, you need to be sure within yourself that you did hear from Him.
Once you can truly say to Abba/Father that you’re okay with whatever He says, you can ask and expect to hear from Him. Have a pen and notebook to write down whatever He says to your heart, even if it’s only a single word. He often seems to me to beat around the bush, but He has His reasons, and He does eventually paint the whole picture – if you’re patient enough. The truths you will receive from Him in this way are too big to fit into a single sentence.
This is an important subject, and He may not finish sharing with you on it all in one go, so be open to spending some serious time with Him. If you’re having trouble getting your own will out of the way, fasting sometimes helps with that.
I have added you to my prayer list, my brother, and will ask that God will fill you with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, that you may walk worthy of Him, fully pleasing to Him and being fruitful in every good work, that you may be strengthened with all power according to His glorious might for all patience and endurance with joy, always giving thanks to Him for enabling you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. (My current favorite prayer – it seems to me to pretty much say it all!) 
Love in Jesus, Cindy
@Cindy
Thanks for taking the thought and time writing to me.
It is 10 years since l last went on the gay scene, I hated it but just went out of lonliness. I’ve never been in a relationship with anyone in my life and i’m 45. I want to please Jesus, it would be nice to have companionship/friendship with someone, I would prefer it to be a gay man who also loves Jesus. I’m not going out looking so unless the Lord sends someone to me. It won’t happen. Having a web filter is helping me keep out of trouble. Because it is too easy to give in to temptation when we are down in the dumps and lonely. I get a lot of strength from Praying the Liturgy of the Hours, prayers to Mary don’t have to be said and i don’t pray to Mary any more. But i look forward to praying in the Morning, Noon Evening and Night, you can also pray mid morning and mid afternoon if you wish. I also pray from my heart during the day. If i didn’t have my faith i don’t know how i would cope, with life. It is fantastic to know that God is the All-Merciful One. He forgives us and He loves us unconditionally despite our poor performance, we are clothed with His righteousness. Life is tough, But God is still Good and he is faithful and true. I worry about the state of the world, how close we are to the end. So close. I am so happy that I have found UR, the victorious Evangel. I have been down a few wrong paths, but the Lord led me right in the end. I think the main reason for us being here on the earth must be to teach us things. Heaven will be all the more glorious to us having experienced the pains of mortality, sin and death. Gods blessings to you Cindy
You too, Bro. God won’t let you down.
Hi Paul
I just wanted to offer you a few words of encouragement and support.There is a wide, disgraceful and God-dishonouring streak of homophobia in the church, which in my opinion is almost entirely a reflection of people’s personal prejudices, not scriptural truth. My gay brother, David, while he is a good, kind person who believes in God, at the moment rejects the church completely because of its homophobic stance. He says he could never be a member of any group that condemns him simply for being what he is, a gay man. And I don’t blame him!
You say you are 100% gay, and that’s great, that’s cool. God made you that way, so personally I’m 100% sure He is cool with you being gay too. And unlike Cindy, I don’t believe the NT teaches that gay sex is a sin, although obviously it can be read that way - especially in translation. (Although Cindy, your post is kind, generous, beautiful and full of truth, and reflects your tender, God-like heart.) I think the Bible teaches that gay men and women should abide by the same ‘rules’ as straight Christians - ie committed, loving, monogamous relationships.
If you’re interested, I can email you a brilliant article written by a gay pastor of 28 years standing who has studied the scriptures in the original Greek. He makes a wholly convincing case that the tiny number of apparent references to homosexuality in the Bible (OT and NT) do not actually, when understood correctly, say that gay sex is a sin. If you’re interested in reading it, let me know or send me a private message and I can send it to you.
But whatever your *opinion *on scriptural interpretations, the facts are:
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Jesus **never **said gay sex is a sin. In fact, He spoke not one single word on the subject - although of course, He often condemned adultery, a sin of which countless thousands of Christians are guilty.
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God loves **all **His children equally (He is no respecter of persons, remember.) White or black, straight or gay, God loves us just the same.
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Even if gay sex *is *a sin - which I do not believe it is - Jesus came to save sinners.
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We are **all **sinners, and we **all **sin all the time. If God *does *convict your heart that gay sex is sinful (and as Cindy says, that is ultimately between you and God), it is no different from any other sin you might commit. I guess what I’m saying here is you mustn’t beat yourself up for it, or feel any more guilt or shame, than you might over any other sin you might commit.
So please don’t torture yourself, Paul. God loves you, and I’m sure He will bless you with a loving Christian partner.
I wish you every blessing, Paul, in Christ, who loves you.
Shalom
Johnny
Johnny,
I’d like to read that, if you don’t mind sending it to me.
Thanks!
Cindy