The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Need a comeback...A SHORT one.

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

Hi. It’s been a REALLY long time since I studied all the scriptures concerning AION and it’s variables…Too long. My pastor thinks he has found a slam dunk against UR. He thinks the following EASILY REFUTES UR. He brings this up often and thinks it’s so airtight, it’s as if he is mocking me saying “How could anyone possible believe in UR when they see this?” Although I know that these scriptures cannot erase the hundreds of UR scriptures, this is still something I need to address. One more thing: My pastor as an INCREDIBLY SHORT ATTENTION SPAN. He is hard to have a conversation with on ANY TOPIC, so this has to be SHORT…VERY SHORT. Here’s what he says:

Revelation 9:6 And swear by Him that LIVETH FOREVER AND EVER, Who created heaven and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein, that there should be time no more.

And…

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER.

His point is that as long as God LIVES, (forever and ever), so are they tormented (forever and ever). And, to deny that they are tormented forever and ever is to deny that God lives forever and ever.

Any insight would be appreciated…

Sass

#2

1.) Fire and brimstone (sulfur) were ancient last-ditch medical procedures, also used in smelting.

2.) Fire and sulfur (but more often fire) are referenced in other scriptures talking about saving of sinners from their sins, restoring them to loyal fellowship with God and with their fellow creatures–including some OT prophecies about the Day of the Lord to come.

3.) The Greek word for “torment” there is a technical term for testing metal to see if it has been refined to proper purity yet. This also has strong OT reference to saving rebels (especially rebel Israel) from sin.

4.) The lake of fire in front of the mercy-seat of the Great White Throne was represented in the Temple by the basin in which sacrifices were washed to be purified before being burned for acceptance by YHWH, the smoke of which rose to please Him.

5.) If God lives forever and ever He also lives “into the eons of the eons” (the actual Greek in both places), even if those “eons of the eons” may not strictly be forever and ever. One usage can be a metaphor for forever without all usages meaning forever.

6.) If other scriptures talk about rebel angels being restored to fellowship with God after suffering final humiliation and defeat (and they do), then either they have to be interpreted by this verse or this verse has to be interpreted by those verses. Since those verses would indicate the story continues beyond this verse, Rev 20 should be interpreted in light of them, not vice versa.

#3

Thanks Jason. The “torment” point is particilarly helpful. I’m going to do a little reseach on “basanismos”. This may be just what I’m looking for as far as dealing with my pastor goes. I also love the mention of the lake in front of the mercy seat. That fits so well, I haven’t read much on that aspect, I’m going to study that too. I know this is not really a post a lot of people would be interested in getting in on, so I thank you for stepping up. Blessings brother!

Sass

#4

I’d probably ask him why he’s taking Revelation so literally, instead of as how it was meant, metaphorically and pictorially, as apocalyptic literature. And if he’s taking Revelation so literally, why not take what Paul wrote and Jesus said literally, why not take “all” to mean “all” in Jn. 12:42, Rom. 5:18, Col. 1:20, Phil. 2:10-11, etc.

And then I’d say something like, “You know, to me, something so important as Hell/ECT, “IF” it was true, I would think it would be named, described, and warned of repeatedly throughout scripture, and wouldn’t rely upon one or two passages. It would have especially been warned of in the Law, and Paul would have clearly warned of it especially in Romans. But of course it is not. So being evidence in support of ECT is so sparse in scripture, I don’t believe in it, especially considerning the amazing promises of scripture that indicate the reconciliation of all creation.”

#5

Great response Sherman! I like!! :smiley: Right to the point, concise,and very direct. Now Jason, ya know I love ya man, but I can’t always follow you, you are TOO brilliant for me to understand sometimes (sound familiar dude??? :wink: ), so I will HAVE to keep rereading your reply until it sinks into my deteriorating (can’t spell either) brain!! :laughing: I think you both gave Sass some GREAT info and me too! Thanks.

#6

Thanks Sherman. Yeah, he always says: “The Book of Revelation is a simple book to teach…IF you know it’s SYMBOLS are explained in the previous 65 books.” And, he’s RIGHT. He just doesn’t believe LAKE OF FIRE is a symbol (WOW) or ever alluded to in the previous 65. This. I. Cannot. Understand. AT ALL. ER DUR! But yeah…“Mike, tell me why you don’t think the Lake of Fire is a symbol”, pretty well ought to do the trick!

Sass

#7

I want to know why this guy gets 45 minutes to 2 hours (depending on denomination) to bend your ears – all of you – and he can’t spare a good attentive 5 minutes for “his flock” ever?

Sorry, but that irritates me. It’s as if he’s the mouth and the brain of the body and everyone else is a giant ear with perhaps a set of hands or two thrown in to operate the vacuum cleaner and the sound board. Hands that try to speak or think are gently slapped or tucked firmly into pockets.

And how can you have forever and ever? How can you have more of forever? If it’s forever, it’s never-ending and needs no enhancement, ever. People say that this is for emphasis. What emphasis? You can’t be a little bit pregnant and you can’t have a little bit of forever. And what’s more, it’s impossible to be the Savior of all the world, but only save maybe 20% of 20% at the most. :unamused:

Not irritated at you, Sis – just at your situation – and I’m sure he’s a very nice and sincere man, but sheesh!

Love, Cindy

#8

Amen, Cindy!! My sentiments exactly… and I can literally feel the emotion behind your words…blessings!

#9

Thanks Cindy. It’s an hour and it’s excrutiating. :slight_smile: He IS a good guy and I love him like a brother…Like a very annoying little brother. It’s not so much HIM as much as my friends when they find I believe in UR will use the verses he is teaching them to refute UR. I know I only have a few seconds to make a point before I get tuned out.

It’s excrutiating (and I hope I am spelling that right because I can’t access spellcheck on my laptop) because when you believe in ECT, that’s it. There is nothing else to learn, he just repeats the same doctrine and dogma every week. When I learned about UR it seems like the teaching has become limitless, there is ALWAYS something new to learn. That’s why I hate it…I’m not learning and it seems like a complete waste of my time.

Sass

#10

Excruciating :laughing:

You made me look it up! I thought you had it right, but maybe that’s the British spelling. :wink: I’ll be back later – really must . go . to . work . NOW. (sigh) People like me should probably not be self-employed. :blush:

#11

Ha ha now THERE IS A SUBJECT!!! PASTORS!!!

I’ve never met one who didn’t think the sound of his own voice was like unto an angel choir!

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

#12

Bret,

By my standards, that was pretty short! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Also, I tried to think of a number of brief rationales, any of which Sass could try depending on the situation (since she knows her pastor and might know something he’s fond of that connects unexpectedly to the verse there–maybe he’s a big fan of preaching how we ought to be refined like gold for example, or of being washed clean before the mercy seat in baptism, or of being baptized by Christ in spirit and fire not only in water.)

But, yeah, if the brief rationales are added up they become less brief. :mrgreen: Our hope for God’s salvation of sinners from sin isn’t founded on a line or two taken out of context, so it’s hard to know when to stop drawing connections. (Sorry, Sass. :slight_smile: I hope one or more of those is helpful.)

#13

Oh Jason… I’m just tormenting you is all, even though I DO have a hard time comprehending all that you write! :stuck_out_tongue: But I understood what you JUST wrote fine, can you imagine that?! Can’t speak for Sass, but IF I were asking the same question, I think y’all gave some great advice. And I DID learn something which is an accomplishment in and of itself these days. Thanks for humoring me Jason, I was just attempting to be funny… and here Sass was asking a serious question. :blush: And I think it to be a GOOD question overall… as I did learn something from the replies. :smiley:

#14

Also Sass, “forever and ever” is pictoral, poetic language, not technical. It fits the apocalyptic, metaphoric, movie type of language that John is using. John is describing a series of visions and visions, to my knowledge, are not meant to be taken literally, but inspirationally. And apocalyptic literature is not meant to be taken or analysed literally, but inspirationally. It’s like interpreting the Matrix or Lord of the Rings, or extended movie clips from them. I hope your pastor has enough accademic background to know this concerning John’s Revelation. And if he knows this and still appeals to Revelation from a technical perspective, well, that’s sad and to me disingenuous. Of all the books of the Bible, Revelation is the most challenging to understand and interpret because of the style of literature it is. It’s like interpreting Picasso’s Gunerica! And the thing about paintings, movies, and other similar works of art, they can say different things to different people. It is meant to illicit feelings more than logical deductions, I think and feel.

So he wants to take metaphorical, pictoral language and interpret it literally, but the more didactic passages of Paul he wants to interpret as exagerations, hyperbolic language, non-literal. I’m glad he has faith in Jesus for his salvation, I just wish he had faith in Jesus for others’ salvation too instead of having faith in Jesus for their damnation.

Countering tradition is extremely hard. In the parable of the sower, it reminds me of the hard ground, ground that has been troddened upon so much that it has become too hard for even roots to penetrate, harder than concrete! Hard ground rejects seed like wax rejects water. And the only way to cure hard ground is for it to be busted up with a shovel/plow! The doctrine of Hell has been taught so long by so many people that for people hardened by that teaching, no amount of scripture or reason will effect them. Only God can break their hearts and make them receptive to the truth. Sadly, this breaking often comes through personal loss. But I hope/pray/trust that God, the owner/gardiner of our hearts, will bring us to a place a receptivity and fruitfulness.

Hang in there sis! I’m encouraged believing that God reconciles all, that one day there will be a reconning and God will make all things right!

#15

YES!!! A THOUSAND TIMES YES, SHERMAN!!! :slight_smile: This is EXACTLY what ECT teachers do. How arbitrarily they do that with the scriptures and how utterly blind they are to the fact that they do that is…is…is just mind blowing!!! It’s Twilight Zone! :open_mouth: I want to just scream out: “Doesn’t anyone but me see what the heck is going on here!” It’s such a load of bull! They change their interpretation gears MID VERSE at times and don’t even see it! Blood boiling!

#16

Wow! So true, Sherman. I was thinking/meditating on that parable last week and it occurred to me that, though it’s one of the few Jesus interpreted, I STILL had it wrong! The plant is the Kingdom. Our hearts are the soil. And I would have told you that, too, but I would still have thought of my heart as the plant trying to grow amongst weeds and also considered it my fault for the weeds, the shallow soil, the hardness.

But it isn’t the ground’s fault if it’s hard or shallow or ridden with thorns. It’s the farmer’s responsibility to prepare the soil. And He’ll do it, too. And as for it coming at great cost to the soil, I’m afraid that’s inevitable. It’s part of the process and we’ll all go through it. So perhaps the fire or the rock-pickers or the plow or dynamite if necessary is preferable to the slow process of the encroaching weeds that do eventually conquer even the concrete highway left to itself. In His time everything will be green and fruitful.

As for us sowing, while a few seeds will inevitably land on the pathway – broadcasting seed is like that – it may perhaps be best to aim for the good, soft soil. It’s just too bad when the hard soil works so diligently to spread around the cement. :frowning:

#17

Hi Sass,

You might point out that ‘forever and ever’ in scripture doesn’t always mean that, for example:

Psa 148:6 He has also established them forever and ever; He has made a decree which will not pass away.
(Speaking of the sun and moon which will be destroyed.)

Psa 104:5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever. (Yet the earth is also destined for destruction)

(Speaking of the land of Edom … keep in mind that wild animals are also dwelling in the land …) Isa 34:10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

Sonia

#18

Thanks Sonia. I have been thinking: How do you defend, argue or convince something that is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED? CAN that actually be done? I rememeber years before I “found” UR, I told a friend: “Wouldn’t it be awesome if God just decided enough was enough and let everyone out of Hell?” I wonder now if I had actually discerned it then, way before I had the MENTAL proof to believe it…

Sass

#19

Also, strictly speaking it totters all the dang time and isn’t fixed on firm foundations at all. :wink:

#20

Also worth noting: Psalm 148 as a whole is dedicated to exhorting all existent reality to praise God. That includes all God’s angels and all the hosts and all the stars at vv.2-3.

But some of God’s angels have rebelled and become (metaphorically) wandering stars who kept not their duties. So the inclusive scope of the Psalm hints either at their eventual salvation or annihilation. Otherwise all the stars (as metaphors for angels) would not be able to loyally praise Him eventually.