Need help

[bobby456]

I’ll try to make this brief, I became a Christian (I guess) about 3-4 years ago, after some crazy events in my life led me to seek God, and I eventually stumbled upon a Christian club at school, met a lot of really cool people who inspired me. But then, when I learned of eternal hell, and that became real to me, I became really afraid. I sought answers, scoured the bible, asked friends and people at church, always unsure of my salvation. About 5 months ago I developed a medical condition which is likely permanent and could get worse. It made me an utter wreck of anxiety for a few months, I’m doing I guess slightly better now, but the fear of hell is just too much for me now. My life is just a lot of pain right now, and I’m tired of being afraid of burning forever. I am tired of believing in a messed up dark reality. The way my brain works, my sense of right and wrong, the desires of my heart, my desire for just PEACE and freedom… none of that goes with a belief in an eternal hell. But, it’s engrained pretty deep in me now. I am too scared to let go of it completely. I want so badly to believe in annihilationism or universalism or something else more positive. But what gets me the most is near death experiences… many of them are positive yes, but they seem to confirm the existence of hell, which freaks me out. I dont know who to trust or what to believe, or where to turn, I feel pretty lost and alone in fighting all this. And now that I have to deal with chronic physical pain everyday, it’s getting to be too much.

I just I guess am looking for people who know what I’m going through, because most of my christian friends dont at all. I dont really know, I am just tired and I need help

Thanks for reading

[Username1]

Hi Bobby

Welcome to the forum. My heart went out to you when I read your post, because I’ve been in that place too. Crippled with anxiety (still on medication for that ), wanting desperately to trust God but tortured by feelings of despair at my own sinfulness and a terrible fear that I might end up in hell as a result. But not any more. Not any more.

Ever since, prompted by the writings of the wonderful George MacDonald (a big hero to many on this site) I started to seriously explore Christian Universalism; ever since I started daring to read and believe what the Bible actually says, not what our tradition tells us - that God is not willing that any should perish, for example, or that as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive; ever since I started trusting the heart God gave me, the reason he endowed me with, and the loving examples He put around me - my wonderful Mum and Dad, who I know would never, ever turn their backs on me forever, no matter how far I might stray - ever since then I have never once wavered from an absolute conviction that eternal hell is a total myth, and that God is what the Bible tells us He is. He is love, and in Him is no darkness at all. Believe that Bobby; trust in that plain Biblical truth and it will set you free, because perfect love casts out fear.

You will find tons of resources here to help you, and hundreds of lovely people who’ve been through the sort of darkness you describe and been brought out into the light of God’s love for all His children. Personally I’d recommend you read Thomas Talbott’s book The Inescapable Love of God. Professor Talbott is a patron of this site, and he lays out the Biblical case for Universal Salvation in a way that’s easy to understand and totally convincing. You can download chapters for free from Tom’s website, and also buy the book in PDF form. It changed my life!

A word about NDEs - specifically those ‘I went to hell and came back’ type memoirs like Bill Weise’s 23 Minutes in Hell, or two words in fact - utter garbage. Sensationalist, incoherent, unbiblical rubbish designed purely to pray on our fears to make money. Weise and his ilk have been comprehensively debunked as either fools or charlatans or both on numerous websites.

And if you yourself have experienced anything like that personally, rest assured it is only your troubled mind playing tricks on you. Bad dreams can sometimes feel very real.

Please don’t worry any more Bobby. The God shown to us in Jesus loves you, and all of us, far too much to have worked the miracle of creating you to end up rejecting you forever.

I now find the very idea of ‘eternal hell’ absurd. It would be laughable if it hadn’t caused so much fear and pain over the centuries.

Just one more quick bit of Biblical ‘proof’ for you. Do you know how many times Paul, the architect of the Gospel, the man who boldly declared he had “proclaimed the whole counsel of God” mentions ‘hell’? Once. Just once in his entire writings, and even then in a passing mention, where the concept isn’t fully explained or articulated and, as you will find is the case with all the so-called Biblical ‘evidence’ for hell, rests on highly dubious, disputed translations of the original Greek. Surely if Paul had believed in eternal hell he would have hammered that message home in every single letter he wrote?!

He didn’t, because he did not believe in eternal hell. Neither do I, praise God.

All the best

Johnny

[Matt_Wiley]

I just want to say bro really quick that you’re not alone, and I can relate to a lot of what you’re going through.
And I imagine a lot of us here could say the same.

I’ll try to comment further later, but let me leave you with something that might encourage you.

I write poetry now and then and I recently came across an old poem that I wrote when I was going through some of what you’re going through now a few years ago, namely fears and doubts about God and about where I stood with him, and in this poem I was reaching for hope, much as you are. I revised it a bit before sharing it online, but I kept the message and tone of it the same. Perhaps you may resonate with it and it may encourage you:

Barred Bird

Words, sometimes, are
empty on the page,
in certain moods,
the drawn shades,
but sometimes, we see
ourselves in the words,
looking glass,
and the uncertainty, or shame,
or maybe just waiting by a window
or maybe hope,
hope that is alive…

I talk about the same things
over and over again,
and sometimes want so much
to write something new,
but I’m drawn back,
and back again,
to old stories,
to common tales,
in music,
and in memories…

What words are there in the beginning,
what words are there in the end,
and in what name is found our beginning,
and our end,
every beginning,
and every end?

And the earth turns and turns
in the pitch, silent cold,
and beautiful fires,
burning lands,
far away, out in the deep,
and that mystery found
in a quiet face,
stricken with pain…

Faith in the unseen,
hope laid on the ground,
love in the dark…

Oh what words can express
this world around,
this universe inside;
I can’t see myself
with all masks removed,
can’t see myself,
and who sees,
who knows,
with whom may I trust
my nakedness,
my aching heart,
my questioning eyes?

Found myself,
not so long ago,
in a lonely shell,
and more
than a little wonder,
and what words
can I find to say myself
to whomever may hear,
I cannot say myself,
I cannot,
I can only say and say
these words
to an audience
barely listening,
understanding…

Or no?
Is there anyone here with me?
To see, to hear,
to touch,
beyond the skin,
can I grasp someone there,
maybe a hand on my heart,
answering eyes,
seeing,
knowing,
forgiving,
loving?

And I’m aching…

By the shore
the Milky Way arose,
and I am young,
but my failures are old,
and my troubles too,
and all the people
tell old stories,
tell common tales,
in many songs we sing,
our memories of good and ill,
like the sands
on the shore by the sea…

And from a window,
the wind in the trees,
and above,
in the sky
a shooting star,
and on the earth
a boy,
waiting wild for the dawn…

And still I wait for dawn,
singing now
and then
and again,
psalms of hurt
and hope
and home;
though madness
and despair
come easy,
yet I am reaching,
fumbling,
trying to find the wall
in the troubling dark,
and find the way along…

But maybe I’m not alone?
Maybe not all fathers
are monsters in disguise,
maybe not all mothers
are the abandoning kind,
and sometimes the bad things
we think we see
aren’t true,
and sometimes the good things
we can’t see much at all
are
and let the man of facts
find his feelings
and let the man of feelings
find his facts
and let the children come,
let darkness,
let death,
be done,
and come peace
after the battle,
come sunrise
after a long night of rain,
for anger abides not,
bridges can be built,
and love never fails…

‘Please cover me,
because I am naked,
please hold me,
because I am scared…’

…I plead to the one that I fear,
to the one that I cannot control,
and oh how I long to be free,
though I do not know
what freedom means,
only that it matters much,
and that I long for it…

And the people they hear,
or read the words written down,
and perhaps care not,
or perhaps see themselves,
or find uncertainty,
or shame,
or looking out,
maybe hope…

But I cannot put my face
upon another,
I can only put my face,
my heart,
before another,
my words,
questions, cries,
waiting awkwardly for answer,
for a listening ear,
for an understanding,
waiting for truth that is freeing…

And at a window,
the barred bird waits to out,
and a boy who sometimes feels
so lost,
and so wrong,
sometimes afraid
of monsters,
and dark eternities,
holds on,
holds on,
to stories of faith and hope,
to words of life and love,
that tell,
that say,
at journey’s end there will be,
oh yes there will be,
the tender embrace,
the healing grace,
of a father’s arms…

Blessings to you brother. You are not alone in your struggle.

Matt

[bobby456]

Thanks guys, I’ll try to get around to reading some of those books and writings… I want to believe in it so bad, just seems to good to be true. But at this point, the fear of hell is wrecking my life so much that I need to do something about it. Just ignoring it isn’t really working anymore.

There are times when I wake up, and for the first few minutes, I am legitimately happy and excited about the day. Then I remember, oh right, theres that hell thing, oh right, I have all these awful pains in my body that are getting worse… and I just sorta start the day defeated.

[SLJ]

Hi Bobby,
Welcome! I also recommend The Inescapable Love of God, but, even more, I recommend taking your fears to God. Talk to Him, and listen to Him, and let Him teach you. Jesus Christ is the exact representation of the Father. He came to show us the Father and the extent of the Father’s love. He teaches us to call God “our Father” because He wants us to know that we are His precious children; to know that our Heavenly Father loves us much more than we love our own children. He loves you – He loves us all – so much more than we can comprehend. He is the good shepherd who goes out searching and carries home the lost sheep on His own shoulders – He will not loose a single one.

Blessings and peace to you,
Sonia

[Sherman]

Hi Bobby and welcome to the forum.

I’m sorry for your trials, but am confident that God will use it for your good, to strengthen and purify your faith in Him. Concerning Hell, did you know that though the word Hell is mistranslated into most English versions, the word’s translated as Hell do not actually mean Hell. The Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades mean “grave or realm of the dead” and do not imply Endless Conscious Torment (ECT). The Greek word Gehenna is a trasliteration of the Hebrew name “Ga Hinnom” which is best translated as “Hinnom Valley” a real valley/ravine just SSW of Jerusalem. Translating it as Hell is just wrong! Hinnom Valley was where the Jews became so bound in their idolatry that they sacrificed their children to the idol Molech. They were in such a downward spiral that God in His love had to put a stop to it and thus brought destruction on Jerusalem and sent the Jews into Babylonian captivity.

If there was a Hell, it seems to me that God would have certainly warned Adam and Eve of such; but He didn’t. And surely God would have warned of Hell through Moses in the Law; but He didn’t. And if Hell was real then surely the prophets would have clarified this glaring mistake of Moses and warned of such in their writings; but they didn’t. And surely, if Jesus intended to not save the world but only save some people, He would have not said He came to save the world. And surely if there was a Hell Jesus would have warned of it at least once; shoot, He would have warned of it specifically and repeatedly; but Jesus does not once warn of Hell/ECT or even name it specifically. Not Once! He warns of sin resulting in metaphorically being cast into Hinnom Valley, but He did not introduce a new teaching to the Mosaic law or correct Moses in any way. And surely, Paul, author of most of the New Testament, would have warned of Hell at least once; but He didn’t. In one place He warns of sin bringing on age-to-come destruction, but in another place he says that such destruction is so that the spirit might be saved. Surely, if Hell was a reality, if love fails, if Jesus fails to save some, much less most, of humaity, then scripture would be replete with Hell being specifically and repeatedly named, warned of; but it is not even once named as a warning for humanity!

On the other hand, scripture is replete with passages that specifically affirm and envision the salvation of All, the reconciliation of all creation! Love does not fail! God does not fail to save those whom He loves and He loves all of creation for He is love!

I too encourage you to read Talbott’s book. It’s a blessing. And I’d encourage you especially to read, study indepth, meditate on Romans 5:18 and Colossians 1:20 in context.

Welcome and blessings upon you and yours,
Sherman

[JasonPratt]

First: {hugs!}

Second: If we’re talking about God, the Ultimate Goodness (and the name of Whom in English is connected to our word ‘good’), there’s nothing “too good to be true”. An idea about God may be false, but not from being too good. An idea may not in fact relate to ethical goodness, but then it isn’t too good.

Third: Psycho-physical problems can hamper intellectual assessment, and can cripple the ability to hold onto beliefs (as rational actions) or to have the proper emotions about beliefs. Whether or not medicine or therapy or other treatments can help the psycho-physical problems (disease, malnutrition, physical traumas of various sorts), it’s important for someone who suffers such things (and I have chronic depression myself) to recognize and keep in mind when the problems are ‘talking’. We may not be able to do much about it right that moment, other than focus on dismissing the effects as interference, but we ought to be trying to do that.

(The problem with this is that recognizing and epistemically dismissing the effects of psycho-physical problems, is itself an intellectual assessment and rational action that can easily be hampered by the psycho-physical problems. Still, I find it useful to simplify my problems when a bad storm hits, figuratively or literally.)

Fourth: being worried about one’s own salvation from sin comes down to two assurances.

A.) If God intends to save everyone from sin, that certainly includes you. This is the assurance Arminians focus on.

C.) If God persists to success for whoever He intends to save from sin, that certainly means He won’t quit on you. This is the assurance Calvinists focus on. (Arminians sometimes focus on this, too, but think God has to be convinced somehow to start persisting.)

B.) Both sides have good arguments; and both arguments together add up to Christian universalism. (Thus the progression ACB rather than ABC! )

Which both sides are very well aware of, so both sides are invested in undermining the hope-focus of the other side! (Which tics off both sides, rightfully so, as each correctly sees the other as undermining an important hope.) But if you focus on the positive arguments of each side, you’ll have the assurance you’re looking for, and you’ll learn how to best interpret the warnings about punishment for impenitent sinners (i.e. sinners who intentionally persist in their sins, not sinners who are caught in sin by mental or physical problems. They’re slated to be healed, not punished.)

This lines up everything in favor of you personally but against your sins (which after all are against other people): loving the sinner while hating the sin. With the right understanding in place, as George MacDonald once counseled, a man could just as well pray for God’s wrath against his sins (and so temporarily against himself, so far as he holds to his sins) as for God’s love for himself, and both can be healthy spiritual exercises. (Both can be morbidly overemphasized, too, which ought to be avoided, but keeping both in mind helps balance.)

[pilgrim]

Hello Bobby -you’re in good company here.
Other than that, all I want to say is that I second Jason’s superb post above.

May God grant you His Peace.

[stuartd]

Hello Bobby -you’re in good company here.
Other than that, all I want to say is that I second Jason’s superb post above.

May God grant you His Peace.

oh taste and see that the Lord is good , try the book amazon.com/At-End-Ages-Aboli … ition+hell

it is a quick and easy read , then try this one amazon.com/Beyond-Righteous- … =hope+hell

its a tad more comprehensive and jam packed with scripture old testament included !

if you enjoy the sharpness of mind that a philosophical approach provides mr Talbott’s book is brilliant ! I can’t for the life of me see how one could read the book and not arrive at the same conclusion

[fmichaeldw]

Hello Bobby,

I have two very dear friends who went through this.

One my brother, happily married, two daughters, ex missionary (before marriage) Anglican in colonial days of Borneo. He faced the struggle and optioned OUT!! And he is much the happier for it and is now a wonderful grandfather, retired, gives lecture on his favourite hobby, wild flowers, today opened a photographic exhibition on wild flowers from the Mediterranean to the mountains of Nepal, loved by all his friends and family. He is a wonderful brother and friend.

He almost, almost accepts what I sometimes tell him: You may not believe in God, but, never mind, God believes in you!!

Now that is one option but I pray your struggle leads you to understand that God is all about love and mercy and goodness.

My other friend ? He never had the good advice you are already getting here. And that was when he had just graduated with a good class degree, good at all sports, leading member of a well known fraternity, wealthy happy middle class family backgound, beautiful clever young fiancee, . He got the “religious bug”, his friends did not understand his position, very similar to what you say in opening this thread. Very sadly, tragicallly as it turned out, communications were not what they are today.

**Happily they do exist for you and you have had the courage and good sense to seek and find help. ** Additionally to all the wonderful encouragament and help you are already receiving here, I hope you are able quickly to, perhaps even through someone here, find a good open priest or bishop to talk face to face. I was lucky myself to find both when I went thru similar struggles many years ago.

Best wishes,

Michael in Barcelona

all I would

[bobby456]

Thanks everyone, been busy and havent gotten around to ordering the readings yet, looked at them a little bit online though. Still struggling, but hanging in there.

Did your friend the ex-missionary abandon christianity completely? or become a univeralist?

[bobby456]

Don’t know if you guys have been to this site or what you think of it, but it has helped me a lot right now, I am starting to get excited about universalism!

near-death.com/experiences/research14.html

near-death.com/experiences/origen11.html

[tutmoses]

Hi Bobby, I know what you are going through and it sounds as though you are on your way out of it.

I felt like the woman bleeding who came to Jesus and touched the hem of his garment. She wanted healing but Jesus sought her out and forced her to share her embarrassing, unclean, problems with the rest of society. Through that, she was healed. I felt a similar process when I shared my fears about hell with my wife and friends.