Nijay K. Gupta says this is the fatal flaw of "Love Wins"


#1

Gupta says that the problem with post mortem salvation is that it forgets that the church will not be present to proclaim the gospel. He asks, "How will these people be saved after they die? This is what the author said:

What do you think?


#2

Actually, scripture says that the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the church. hmm.


#3

The Church is used in this age.

In the next age the unbeliever will see face to face, during the millinium age where Christ will rule. :unamused: IMO

I don’t see a “Fatal flaw” :astonished:


#4

I think of it as “The gates of hell will not be able to withstand the attack of the church upon it” :smiley:


#5

What makes him think the church will have nothing to do with the salvation of those languishing in the fire? If Christ came to us, perhaps we will go to them. We are God’s servants, after all.

I’m reminded of the Grandmother in the Curdie stories by George MacDonald.


#6

If you believe the Church has an essential in the proclamation of the good news, that would be reason to believe that the Church will be involved in continuing service to the lost in the next age, since it does not say any where that the Church will not have that role.

I believe the Bride of Christ is the Church of those saved in this age, and that into the future Christ and his Bride will continue the work of salvation, until all have been made complete in Him.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Sonia


#7

Was listening to an Orthodox philosopher today. He was stating the prayers for the dead are to be done until the day of judgement.


#8

Sounds like he’s grabbing at straws to me. Just because Bell doesn’t specify how God will accomplish his ends postmortem certainly does not mean that He won’t accomplish them, or that He won’t accomplish them through his body. There are a number of scriptural clues to this end; that we will have a central role. If we are to reign with Him, whom are we to reign over but those who have not yet been saved? And to the same purpose that Christ’s reign serves: to put all into subjection to Christ, so that God may be all and in all.


#9

Not all the EOx are universalistic. (I’m not even sure a majority are, although I gather at least a strong minority are.)

However, even this could be construed in a fashion of universalistic salvation, if we no longer have to pray but can go evangelize them directly instead.

(Heck, imagine how much of a hell that would be for them anyway! :laughing: :laughing: )


#10

Aside from the prior critiques of Nijay’s attempts (which I agree are shortsighted), I can add two others:

1.) Supposing for purposes of argument that the sinners outside the New Jerusalem in the Day of the Lord to come are segregated from all contact with righteous creatures (which would be totally repudiating RevJohn as the most obvious counter-example I can think of offhand, although other examples have been suggested upthread)–so the hell what? What is impossible with man is impossible with God the omnipotent and omnipresent?? Did God need the church for witnessing in all circumstances?–Christian witnesses had to exist before Christ came?! Christ never evangelized without evangelical help?! Christ relied on evangelical help when He was around??? That sure isn’t what I’ve ever read!

This has a major connection with my next critique, too:

2.) Nijay’s attempt at exegeting Romans 10, while pretty standard, is also pretty faulty. The gist of that passage, as verse 6 indicates, is that the Logos Christ Himself is the first and foremost evangelist! In fact “the righteousness out of faith speaks thus”!–we aren’t supposed to be asking who will ascend to bring Christ down from heaven, or who will descend into hades to bring Christ up from the dead, but trusting that the Word of faith, which we are preaching, is near to everyone for salvation, in their hearts and even in their mouths.

How shall preachers preach unless they are sent? Sent by whom though?–by the Chief Evangelist Himself! When Paul states “Just as it it written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of the ones who proclaim the gospel, the good things’”, he is surely talking about those who join with Christ in evangelizing, too; but his reference isn’t primarily to them. It’s primarily to YHWH.

Paul is quoting Isaiah 52:7, where YHWH prophecies that in the day of Israel’s salvation (including her salvation from the rightful punishment YHWH has inflicted on her, although the people He used for that did so for evil motives) “Therefore My people shall [in that Day to come] know My name; therefore, in that day, I AM THE ONE WHO IS SAYING HERE I AM!!”

To which Isaiah prophetically answers, “How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of Him Who brings good news, Who announces peace and brings good news of the Good, Who announces salvation and says to Zion ‘Your God reigns!’”

This, by the way, is why the rabbis (even in later centuries after Christianity) stressed that the feet on the mountain proclaiming the good news of Israel’s salvation belonged first and foremost to Israel’s Messiah. Paul, who elsewhere has been identifying the Messiah with YHWH anyway, is doing the same thing here: the feet, and the gospel proclamation, belong first and foremost to the divinely omnipresent Messiah. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of Christ–that which Christ speaks to hear, and that which Christ is.

If we can’t get there, the Messiah can. Surely it doesn’t take an especially robust faith to believe that. :slight_smile:

(Which doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be cooperating with the Messiah in His saving work so far as we can. If we don’t, then we’re the rebel sinners.)


#11

That was good Jason! Isn’t God the source of all salvation, redemtion, sanctification etc.? He is using people in the Church now but He will do what He will do when he wants to do it. We do not dictate to him when, where and how he works. Gupta has a small limited god when he creates such limitations on little or no scriptural evidence instead appearing to resting on human tradition.


#12

I’m with SLJ. My first thought was “the spirit and the Bride say “come”” from Rev 22. That is in the New Jerusalem! We are priests of God! Priests to whom??

Weak


#13

Oh, I wasn’t saying that it was universalism, just relaying some interesting info re: the church’s prayers for post mortem people.
Here’s the podcast: ancientfaith.com/podcasts/carlto … l_be_saved