The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Objections to Univeralism

Oh, and I forgot to say that I agree with Jason that “Truly I say unto you, today you shall be with me in Paradise” is the more natural punctuation, for many times in the Gospel Jesus begins a statement with the phrase, “Truly I say unto you”. He never begins a statement with the phrase, “Truly I say unto you today”.

I think we pick terms that have connotations.

I found this article at Is Hell Eternal Punishment, Eternal Death or Disciplinary Restoration?. Instead of universalism, it uses the term Universal Restoration, which I believe Paidion likes (though he might differ a bit, with the author). I like this term also and classify myself, as a hopeful Universal Restorationist.

I really don’t like the term postmortem corrective punishment. I prefer the term postmortem refinement. I take the position that Biblical descriptions of hell (and Hades) are metaphorical. Hence, we really don’t know the exact nature, of any postmortem refinement.

And for those who don’t like to read, here is the Universal Restoration article - explained on YouTube :exclamation: :smiley:

Part 1


Part 2


Jason, that is probably the best example in the New Testament. A secret kept for “eternal ages” has now been revealed! Hmmm… Not too eternal!

I believe Romans 16:25 is inspired, but I don’t understand it properly, could it be saying that the mystery was kept secret before eternity began?

I’m confused why you can’t see it being used as a figure of speech, as in for example the likes of one partner to another… “My love for you is eternal” or someone complaining at a bus stop… “I’ve been waiting like forever!

By its nature “eternity” is not bound by beginning nor end, it just is. The aiōnios <αἰώνιος> of Rom 16:25 simply means ancient times or long ages past i.e., from ‘antiquities into perpetuity’ – another way of saying vastness.

I don’t know who you are addressing, Davo, but notwithstanding, I’ll tell you why I don’t take it as a figure of speech. Simply because it makes sense without taking it as a figure of speech when αιωνιος is translated correctly as “lasting” or “long lasting” rather than “eternal.”

… according to the disclosure of the secret kept concealed during long lasting times.

Hi Paidion… I was actually addressing STT’s post immediately above mine.

I actually think it’s BOTH… any figure of speech tends to have some literal legitimacy whereby its given applied meaning, i.e., figure of speech, makes sense.

What is a unbeliever? :confused:

Well, do you mean (or think Paul means) anyone who *does not believe at a particular moment *in Christ? Or someone who has rejected Christ? Or maybe someone who can never for what ever reason, believe?

So can I have friendship with my severely retarded cousin who has no comprehension of Christ?

You used the term ‘being friends with’ and the verses is the NASB uses the terms harmony and agreement.

For myself, when a heathen comes to our church, I will go right up to them, shake their hand, show them friendship and love. Will I invite them over to play with my grandkids? probably not. But Christ came for the sick and hurting, and I tend to think that is the tradition to follow. I don’t think that is what Paul is talking about here.

Some tend to think that these verses are about partnerships like marriage or business.
I tend to think he is talking about forming tight relationships with others. To be quite honest, I really don’t know of too many non believers (heathen, rebellious in this case) Who enjoy being around true believers. :smiley: We are boring :laughing:

Oh, come now Chad. It’s only because you don’t embrace the Holy Fool theological tradition and the P-Zombie philosophical tradition. They might call you “strange”, “weird”, “unusual”, etc. - but never boring. :exclamation: :laughing:

Oh so true :exclamation: :laughing:

But I don have to throw a few verses out there for consideration.

1Co 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1Co 5:10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one. :open_mouth:

Actually, I don’t mind eating with them. Or anyone here, for that matter. As long as they paid the tab and we eat at this restaurant :exclamation: :laughing:


And perhaps a ‘very nice ginger-snap’ for dessert? :laughing:

(from some other Monty Python flick)

Actually, I am watching Randy’s MP vid while making Brussels Sprouts. But there are folks who think Brussels Sprouts are immoral :exclamation: :laughing:

And what about the food SPAM or food made with SPAM, Chad :question: :laughing:

Well, I’ve never tried spam with Brussels Sprouts, but go figure… :laughing:

I had spam as a kid, and to be really honest I do not really remember what it tastes like, but I remember mom pulling it out of that can and all that grease/fat… OH baby :laughing:

To be honest, at some point my dad decided that we (as a family) were going to follow the biblical food laws, which meant that spam and ham and pork chops and shrimp and lobster and … You can go to Leviticus and see it all, where off limits. I lived that belief for years and I honored my fathers wishes. Even as I grew and realized the place where Christ will have us be, I felt the urge to honor my father.

To this day, folks who know me from the old days, when we eat together will order pizza with beef sausage.!

I’m not sure why I shared this except to say that we are all dealing with things in our past, and objections to universalism are going to be mucho grando…

And qaz, I really understand what you are talking about… Going to friends parties and having to explain why I could not not eat. And the question always comes up ‘why aren’t you eating?’ I’ve been through it. It is tough.

And for all the inquiring minds, :wink: I still do follow the food laws. It is engrained in me. But I have no problem today eating a piece of catfish on a buffet or pork sausage in a casserole. :smiley:

Christ has set me free from that. :laughing: But I love my dad for the stand he took! :smiley:

A particularly strong and nice food memory is from when I was about 8 years old staying overnight with an uncle, aunt, and cousins in their rural cabin. For breakfast we had fried eggs and spam. Good stuff! :slight_smile:

Beans and spam. Most excellent. :smiley:


Fried spam on toast. With my mother it was educational. “Dont get too up in yourself. We had to eat this all the time when I was little.” My brother and sister hated it, but I loved it, and it was still a part of my diet for as long as I was single, mmmm, with a little mustard and a sprig of lettuce.

I eat and drink with sinners. I am never boring LOLOL. Except sometimes, in my posts :laughing: