StM - I’m not at all certain that it is the end times that are being referred to. The symbols and hyperbole are pretty standard fare for prophetic writing of the time.
[tag]Paidion[/tag]
What do we do with the words usage in 1 John 4:18:
1 JOHN 4:18:
-18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment [kolasis]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
How does the fear that perfect love casts out relate to pruning for correction?
The only two usages of ‘κόλασις [kolasis]’ are in Matthew 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
Did you read the full post? I would certianly NOT be rejoicing over the eternal torture of anyone, Psalm 98:10 could be interpreted in three ways:
-The righteous shall rejoice when they see the wicked being tortured forever - HIGHLY unlikely, I could never see myself rejoicing over such a sight, even if it were Adolf Hitler or Kim Jong-un, surley it would get old after 1000,000,000,000,000,000,000 millennia.
- The righteous shall rejoice when they see the wicked being annihilated - possibly.
- The righteous shall rejoice when they see the wicked suffering a restorative punishment - possibly.
Speaking of Psalms, what do we do with the many verses in Pslams and Proverbs that talk about hate and appear to be either affirming Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) or Annilationism, take Proverbs 1:25-29 for example:
PROVERBS 1:25-33:
-25: But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
-26: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
-27: When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
-28: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
-29: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
-30: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
-31: Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
-32: For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
-33: But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
And the street preachers favorite, Psalm 7:11:
PSALM 7:11:
-11: God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
No and no, but it wasn’t the day of judgement yet, judging by Psalms and Proverbs, things will be different then.
I agree.
David actually prayed for someone to go to ‘hell’ (well Sheol actually, the grave), what do we do with this:
PSALM 55:15:
-15: Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
[tag]DaveB[/tag]
The worst part is that some of those people you listed were Calvinists, and believed the people they will enjoy being seen tortured never had a chance to escape it to begin with.
Dave,
Well it says NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH
and
ALL MANDKIND will worship
That’s clearly the end when all things are made new in Rev. Notice the fires are never quenched and the worms never die. Jesus refers to this:
I’m going to annihilationist Dave.
StM - those better ‘versed’ than me ( 
) may want to carry the water on this one - but there is a difference in audience, purpose, words used etc in Is 66 than other places. For one thing, the Jewish language that is used, the Jewish themes, the Jewish eschatalogical symbology, all point to a particular audience with a particular world-view.
In any case, that’s how I see it. Always open to correction!
So, new heavens and earth don’t mean new heavens and earth?
And all doesn’t mean all when the text says all mankind?
You don’t see the parallel between this and Revelation and the fires and worm not being quenched in Mark?
The same words don’t necessarily have the same meaning, right? But enough - when it comes to symbology and eschatology there is always disagreement. I honor your choice of interpretation though I disagree. We’ve both got bigger fish to fry.
Let me know when you want to show the symbolism here Dave. And the hyperbole. I thought all things meant all things when referring to the new heaven and earth.
Paidion, I didn’t write that statement you have mistakenly attributed to me. SeekingTheTruth wrote that. 
It has nothing to do with pruning. But it has everything to do with correction. I mentioned that the early use of the word was in correcting the growth of trees by pruning. Then I said that the word was used figuratively concerning the correction of children (or other people such as criminals).
“Fear has punishment” doesn’t make sense. A fearful person is suffering enough from the fear itself. “Fear has torment.” What does that mean? That a person is tormented for his fear. Hardly. Tormented BY his fear. That is often the case. But how would that relate to the rest of the verse?
However, “Perfect love casts out fear because fear has correction” makes perfect sense. The perfect (complete) love of one person can drive the fear from another. It corrects the other’s state of fear. “He that fears is made perfect in love.”
Sorry about that, Geoffrey. It’s not the first time I have made such an error.
Well, STM, you have to understand what Dave was saying that the folks that we’re talking about two thousand years ago were not necessarily talking to us. So to take every quote from scripture to apply to us in 2016 is , shall we say, a stretch. 
FWIW, This is my opinion and not someone else’s.
Chad
[tag]Paidion[/tag]
Isn’t it the love doing the correcting, not the torment, which stems from the fear.
Also, speaking of fear, what do we do with these verses:
PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13:
-12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
-13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Doe this mean to make sure we are in the strait and narrow (Matthew 7:13-14) by fearing loss of salvation and eternal torment/annihilation?
JUDE 1:21-23:
-21: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
-22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
-23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Keep yourselves in the love of God? this must mean that God is not always love.
And is verse 23 teaching scaring people with hell to save them?
The word translated as ‘fear’ in Philippians 2:12, 1 John 4:18, and Jude 1:23 is translated from the same Greek word in all cases:
‘φόβος [phobos] (Strong’s Reference Number G5401 - blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g5401)’.
Also, does anyone have any answers to Psalms and Proverbs? and the quote from '‘Truth According To Scripture (link - truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/origin-of-hell-fire.php#.WAM2sI997IV)’ which argues in favour of annihilationism and says that Universalism through post-mortem discipline is a pagan concept?
God Bless
Christ Be With You All
There’s different forms of fear - healthy and unhealthy. Moreover, very few are made perfect in love unless they are in heaven. Everybody has fears in this world. It’s bizarre not to. As long as they are healthy fears.
[tag]St. Michael[/tag]
MY FEARS:
-God will annihilate me / torture me forever (annihilation is more likely), I can honestly say that I deserve annihilation because I am a sinnner and the wages of sin is death:
ROMANS 3:23:
-23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
anyway, I fear annihilation because because:
-Having fun is a sin (1 John 2:15-17) (youtube.com/watch?v=FyMtBtnLxuY)
-I am spending money to see my fiancee in Christmas instead of helping poor people (Matthew 6:33, Luke 12-31,34) (youtube.com/watch?v=pBhqrtMqrv8), I would do both if I could, and I wish I had enough faith to give all my money away and trust God with the rest but I don’t. Seeing poor people upsets me and I wish I could help them, but currently I lack the faith to do so.
URGENT PRAYER REQUEST: Please pray that I can get that faith.
-I am too fearful to believe in universalism because I fear I am having “itching ears” and I can’t “endure sound doctrine” because of the above two points, and yet I am also too fearful to embrace annilhiationism, or worse, Eternal Concious Torment because I fear it will be my fate due to the above two points.There are also things that universalists have not yet answered for me, mainly being the hateful messages in Psalms and Proverbs, the quote from ‘Truth According To Scripture’ saying that universalism is pagan, the fact that you need to “Keep yourselves in the love of God” (Jude 1:21), etc.
-The standard you must reach to obtain salvation is too high for me to reach (Matthew 19:21-30, Luke 14:26), didn’t The Lord Jesus Christ say “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”
LUKE 13:24:
-24: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Would you consider these ‘healthy’ fears, some may say not but they are backed up with scripture.
God Bless
Christ Be With You All
Having fun isn’t a sin and if you have faith in Christ you are covered in His righteousness. You are His child. Let go and trust God. The standard is love God more than anything. If you mess up consfess your sins.
STT, I can’t at the moment remember all your other comments, but as to purgatorial belief having been believed by pagan cultures–there are a whole, huge host of Judeo/Christian beliefs that were believed in ancient and non-Abrahamic cultures–the dying and rising god, for a very LARGE (but by no means the only) example. Just because God may have revealed a portion of His truth to other cultures besides the Jews, that doesn’t negate the truth. It merely gives the other culture a handle to help them relate to the full truth in Christ.
STT,
About your fiancé,
Spend your money on your fiancé. You can always volunteer helping the poor. You don’t have to spend money.
Say this and you are covered in His righteousness and don’t have to worry about hell:
Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.
I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin.
You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved.
Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved.
Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself.
Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. AMEN.
Absolutely qaz. Jesus didn’t retaliate because He trusted the Father to handle it.
Paul is telling us that personal vengeance belongs to God. There are ways we are to be like God and ways we are not. My faith is in God to handle my accounts. If justice isn’t done in this lifetime it will be done in the next. In this way I will be loving the way Jesus did while He was on earth. When I let go and let God handle my accounts I am free to forgive.