Objections to Univeralism

[Paidion]

Also, since you are not a Trinitarian, what do you do with this:

1 JOHN 5:7:
-7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That’s an easy one. This verse is known as "The Comma Johanneum."At one time that verse was a copyist’s note. Later, some copyists added the note to the text. No Greek text prior to the ninth century contains the verse. These facts are common knowledge. You can learn more about it from the Bible-Researcher site:
bible-researcher.com/comma.html

And here is proof that The Lord Jesus Christ is God:

HEBREWS 1:8:
-8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Clealy, the Son (The Lord Jesus Christ) is being called God here

No, that is not a proof. Nor is it clear that God is addressing his Son as “God”—for the following reasons:
The Greek words that the King James translators rendered as “Thy throne, O God” are (using Latin characters) “ho thronos sou ho theos”
If this were a form of address,:“God” should be in the vocative case. Thus it should be “ho thronos sou theë”. But “ho theos” is in the nominative case (used as a subject or as a subjective completion). “ho theos” means “The God” and “The God” is the Father. That means it should be translated as “Your throne is God” or “God is your throne.” I think that this indicates that the Son rules in the Kingdom from a position of authority (throne), and that authority (throne) is God Himself.

Virtually all translations render the words as “Your throne, O God.” I don’t know why. The only translations of which I am aware that have “God is your throne” are the early editions of the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The others hold that even though “God” is in the nominative form, it actually is in the vocative case anyway.

The clause is quoted from Psalm 45:6. I don’t know Hebrew, but the words in the Greek Septuagint are identical with those quoted in Hebrews 1:8

Here are some websites about the matter that you might want to check out:

carm.org/heb-18-and-psalm-456-god-thy-throne

angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Heb1_8.html

There are many other sites where it is argued that the correct translation is “Your throne, O God.” It is unbelievable to me that the God—the Father—the only true God—would address his Son as “the God” (ho theos).

[SeekingTheTruth]

[tag]davo[/tag]

Great… then I would suggest you embrace this and so put your mind and soul at ease.

I would but my mind and soul at ease if I could, but see what I said above your post about my fear of having “itching ears” because I can’t see myself being able to live up to the standards set in Matthew 19:21-30 and Luke 14:26.

[tag]Paidion[/tag]
If Jesus is not God, we are breaking the first commandment:

EXODUS 20:3:
-3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

…because:

1 JOHN 2:23:
-23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

You have the Son to have the Father, the same Father who said “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”, so logiclly, the Son of God is God.

[davo]

[tag]davo[/tag]

Great… then I would suggest you embrace this and so put your mind and soul at ease.

I would but my mind and soul at ease if I could, but see what I said above your post about my fear of having “itching ears” because I can’t see myself being able to live up to the standards set in Matthew 19:21-30 and Luke 14:26.

Well then you are indeed STUCK by your own intransigent mindset and absolutely nothing else; it is YOUR call alone and no-one and nothing else… you need to own it yourself and NOT put it on others to resolve!

[Paidion]

If Jesus is not God, we are breaking the first commandment:

I have explained in what sense of the word “God” that Jesus is God and in what sense He isn’t.

The first commandment:
You shall have no other gods besides me

Jesus addressed his Father as the “only true God.” So, in what sense would anyone consider Jesus to be another god besides the Father?
In any case, the very Son of God can hardly be said to be a different God.

I agree with Trinitarians that the Son is of the same divine essence as the Father. Where I disagree is with the concept of calling that essence “God.”
Nearly all occurrences of the word “God” in the New Testament, refer to the Father alone.

[davo]

If Jesus is not God, we are breaking the first commandment:

No I didn’t…

[anon47460357]

SeekingTheTruth:

You need not worry about “itching ears”, since (on the topic of Hell) it is the Hell-believers who have itching ears, not the universalists.

Yesterday for the first time I mentioned to a fellow Orthodox that I am a universalist. (Note that I didn’t pounce this on him. He kept talking about Hell as though I was agreeing with him, so I felt I had to correct his misperception.) Alas, I got the exact same typical nonsense I get from Protestants and Roman Catholics who believe in Hell. It’s so depressingly unvarying in its ill-conceived notions.

I am 46 years old. I became a universalist around age 20. It took a few years of study–particularly at George MacDonald’s feet–for me to become a firmly convinced universalist. It didn’t happen all at once. In the last 26 years, I have convinced pretty much zero people of universalism. I’ve only half-convinced my wife, and I raise my 11-year-old daughter as a universalist, but that’s it. No one else. Here’s the kicker:

I have never, and I mean NEVER, come across anyone who at the mention of universalism said something like, “Oh, what a wonderful notion! I would dearly love for that to be true. If only it were so! Please tell me more. I so want to believe, but X, Y, and Z prevent it.” I would like to think that that would be the common response, but no. The responses I get range from bewilderment, to offense, to outright anger (with most towards the angry end of the spectrum). On this point, the Hell-believers are similar to atheists. I’ve never met one who longed for God but sadly thought Him non-existent. All the atheists I’ve met are self-contented and contemptuous at the thought of God.

In my experience, believers in Hell tend to carry Hell around in their pockets as “argument insurance”. Anyone they don’t like, or anyone who dares to disagree with them, or anyone who does something they don’t like, they mentally put in Hell with relish. I’ve literally seen the smug, self-satisfied smiles they sometimes have when contemplating their enemies burn.

I have never, ever encountered someone who spoke of Hell with sorrow.

Once (and only once) have I encountered someone who primarily spoke of Hell in reference to herself. (She was an extraordinarily sensitive and introspective young Pentecostal woman worried about going to Hell.) Everyone else I’ve met thinks Hell is for “someone else”.

Itching ears want Hell. They insist upon it.

If itching ears wanted universalism, there would be universalist churches all across the First World. Look at the depressingly huge numbers of “churches” that openly say abortion, divorce, homosexuality, etc. are all A-OK. We would see just as many churches proclaiming universalism if that’s what itching ears wanted to hear.

No. People take offense at the very notion of universalism. They get angry. They raise their voices and get heated. They absolutely must have their Hell to put other people in, or Christianity isn’t worth a damn.

We universalists are RC-drinkers in a world of Coke and Pepsi. We are a tiny little minority who, on this point, are thoroughly right and sane against the insane masses who love their Hell (for other people).

[anon12438761]

You’re on a roll!! Good!

[SeekingTheTruth]

[tag]davo[/tag]

Well then you are indeed STUCK by your own intransigent mindset and absolutely nothing else; it is YOUR call alone and no-one and nothing else… you need to own it yourself and NOT put it on others to resolve!

I know, although I don’t think ‘intransigent’ is the right word because it’s not an unwillingness to change my views but rather fear.

[tag]Paidion[/tag]
1 JOHN 2:23:
-23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

You need to have the Son to have the Father, so in a sense, one could see this as putting the Son before the Father, which would only possible to do without sinning if The Lord Jesus Christ is God.

Also, you mentioned that “and these three are one.” was added to 1 John 5:17, if so, why is it in Greek Interlinear Bibles? (link - scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm)

[tag]Geoffrey[/tag]

I am 46 years old. I became a universalist around age 20

Ironically, 20 is my age now, although not for much longer.

Once (and only once) have I encountered someone who primarily spoke of Hell in reference to herself. (She was an extraordinarily sensitive and introspective young Pentecostal woman worried about going to Hell.)

Well the compare me to that woman (even though I’m a male), I am worried about being under the wrath of God because I haven’t sold everything, left my fiancee (who IS a Christian also of course)(long distance relationship, I just spent $1700 on a plane ticket and need more to get through US customs, which means not giving the homeless people I see, which makes me worry because of Matthew 19:16-30), and give to the poor.

And yes I do understand the idea of “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Matthew 6:33) but I don’t have that level of faith, can everyone please pray that I get it.

If itching ears wanted universalism, there would be universalist churches all across the First World. Look at the depressingly huge numbers of “churches” that openly say abortion, divorce, homosexuality, etc. are all A-OK. We would see just as many churches proclaiming universalism if that’s what itching ears wanted to hear.

Well I remember watching on street preaching video on YouTube where a pastor of a church that had a sign apologizing about Christians being against gay marriage came out and said there was no hell because Jesus spoke of Gehenna. Sadly I can’t find the video so I can’t link it.

There is an interesting verses in Psalms:

PSALM 58:10:
-10: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

This verse could be seen in three ways:

-The righteous shall rejoice when they see the wicked being tortured forever - HIGHLY unlikely, I could never see myself rejoicing over such a sight, even if it were Adolf Hitler or Kim Jong-un, surley it would get old after 1000,000,000,000,000,000,000 millennia.

• The righteous shall rejoice when they see the wicked being annihilated - possibly.
• The righteous shall rejoice when they see the wicked suffering a restorative punishment - possibly.

Either way, Psalm 58:10 disproves ultra-universalism.

God Bless
Christ Be With You All

[anon47460357]

Why do you think that Psalm 58:10 refers to stuff that happens after death?

[davo]

Well then you are indeed STUCK by your own intransigent mindset and absolutely nothing else; it is YOUR call alone and no-one and nothing else… you need to own it yourself and NOT put it on others to resolve!

I know, although I don’t think ‘intransigent’ is the right word because it’s not an unwillingness to change my views but rather fear.

Unfortunately “fear” is the fruit of religianity and the means whereby we sign away personal accountability to the group-think of whatever brand of religianity we favour. And so to the degree we can grasp and master the rigorous requirements bound up in the endless raft of rules, regulations, rites and rituals, and that by rote, well then to that degree we can be free… but that’s hard work and in fact not true freedom but in the end even more toxic to the soul.

[Cindy_Skillman]

This is, I think, why John warns in the Revelation that the timid are amongst those outside the city, suffering in the LoF. Not that I take Revelation literally. It is, in fact, a very difficult book to take literally (especially since it was never intended to be taken literally), but I think that the Apostle John understood the hell that timid people suffer through. The only way to escape that hell it is by taking courage from the Lord Jesus Christ. Fear IS torment, as I’ll bet you know very well indeed. The remedy is to trust in the goodness of God–in the salvation of the Lord Christ. When you trust Him and take your eyes off yourself, the hell you suffer in will cool and you will find the LoF to be instead the refreshing waters of the River of Life. Be strong and courageous and you will eat the fat of the Land–that is to say, you will eat of the Bread of Life–which is, according to Jesus, Jesus Himself. “I am the bread that comes down from heaven; whoever eats of Me shall never die . . .”

Again it comes down to this. Do you believe that God is good or do you not? If you believe He is good they why do you fear? Do you truly believe that a good God would destroy you, the one who wants to please Him but is yet too weak to obey? No! He will rather mold you into the image of His Son Jesus–just like He SAID He would do in Romans 8. HE will do this–you cannot, but HE CAN. So trust and don’t be afraid. God’s got this.

[tag]Geoffrey[/tag], great points! Excellent post.

[SeekingTheTruth]

[tag]Geoffrey[/tag]

Why do you think that Psalm 58:10 refers to stuff that happens after death?

Simple, the righteous will see it, you have said it yourself that people don’t see the punishment in this life as punishment at all, but Psalm 58:10 makes it clear that the righteous will see the punishment of the wicked, seeing the punishment is required to rejoice.
And then there is also Psalm 91:8:

PSALM 91:8:
-8: Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

This makes it crystal clear.

[tag]davo[/tag]

Unfortunately “fear” is the fruit of religianity and the means whereby we sign away personal accountability to the group-think of whatever brand of religianity we favour. And so to the degree we can grasp and master the rigorous requirements bound up in the endless raft of rules, regulations, rites and rituals, and that by rote, well then to that degree we can be free… but that’s hard work and in fact not true freedom but in the end even more toxic to the soul.

Either way, I’m not choosing to be in this predicament, I’m too fearful to believe in universalism because I may be wrong, I’m too fearful to embrace annilhaitonism because I fear that it may be my fate.

[tag]Cindy Skillman[/tag]

Fear IS torment, as I’ll bet you know very well indeed.

All to well:

1 JOHN 4:18:
-18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Since I quoted that verse, it’s also worth mentioning that the same word translated as ‘torment’ here is the same word translated as ‘punishment’ in Matthew 25:46, ‘κόλασις [kolasis]’ (Strong’s Reference Number G2851 - blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=niv&strongs=g2851), these are the only two usages of the word and a case can be made for Eternal Concious Torment (ECT) from this, because fear is torment, and Matthew 25:46 uses the same word that is translated as ‘torment’ in 1 John 4:18, which would allow one to draw to make a conclusion that ‘everlasting punishment’ is ‘everlasting torment’.

Do you believe that God is good or do you not? If you believe He is good they why do you fear?

Yes I believe God is good, but I also believe God is holy, before you said “We’re not told that God is holiness”, but:

LEVITICUS 20:26:
-26: And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

1 PETER 1:16:
-16: Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Although I don’t think ECT is just punishment (someone could make the case that I’m ‘leaning on my own understanding here’ and quote Proverbs 3:5-6) for sin, BUT I do think annihilationism IS a just punishment for sin, and a holy God must punish sin:

ROMANS 6:23:
-23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And then we have

HEBREWS 10:26:
-26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
-27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
-28: He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
-29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
-30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Do you truly believe that a good God would destroy you, the one who wants to please Him but is yet too weak to obey? No! He will rather mold you into the image of His Son Jesus–just like He SAID He would do in Romans 8

Like I mentioned before, Romans 8 is only talking about the people God foreknew who would have faith and not lose said faith:

ROMANS 8:29:
-29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Calvinists always conveniently leave out the part about foreknowledge and cling to the part about predestination.

Also I will add, does anyone have a response to that quote from the ‘Truth According To Scripture’ article claiming that Universalism is pagan?

God Bless
Christ Be With You All

[anon47460357]

[tag]Geoffrey[/tag]

Why do you think that Psalm 58:10 refers to stuff that happens after death?

Simple, the righteous will see it, you have said it yourself that people don’t see the punishment in this life as punishment at all, but Psalm 58:10 makes it clear that the righteous will see the punishment of the wicked, seeing the punishment is required to rejoice.
And then there is also Psalm 91:8:

PSALM 91:8:
-8: Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

This makes it crystal clear.

Anyone with eyes to see can see the continuous punishment that God gives mankind for our sins. Every second of every day God is punishing sin. He is not some sort of demigod who occasionally punishes sin. No. Rather His very essence is an unescapable judgment upon sin.

The passages from the Psalms that you give do not apply to someone who screws his eyes shut and refuses to see. But to those who look around? They see the ubiquitous righteous judgments of God on wickedness. As St. Yogi Berra said, “You can observe a lot by watching.”

[Paidion]

Since I quoted that verse, it’s also worth mentioning that the same word translated as ‘torment’ here is the same word translated as ‘punishment’ in Matthew 25:46, ‘κόλασις [kolasis]’

“κολασις” was originally used in the sense or pruning trees in order to correct their growth. Later, it was used figuratively in the sense of correcting children. I don’t like to use the word “punishment” to apply to correction. One may administer unpleasant consequences to misbehaving children to correct them, but “punishment” suggests either inflicting penalties or wreaking vengeance. People do that to each other, but I am persuaded that God doesn’t (please think about my signature statement). I don’t think God punished in the penal or vengeful sense at all. All of God’s judgments are remedial. The line translated “Vengeance (εκδικησις) is mine; I will repay, says the Lord” would be better translated as “Vindication is mine, I will compensate.” God will set everything right—making certain that the wicked are corrected and that the righteous will be vindicated. Let me give an example where is it impossible to translate εκδικησις as “vengeance” and make any sense out of it:

For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what εκδικησις! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. (2 Cor 7:11)

In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul advised the Corinthian Christians to shun the sinning brother who had copulated with his father’s wife, not to eat with such a person. The purpose was not to penalize him or to bring vengeance upon him, but help bring about his repentance. It worked; the man had a change of heart and mind. Then

For I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you. Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you.
For such a one, this επιτιμια by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. (2 Cor 2:4-8)

Unfortunately “επιτιμια” has been translated as “punishment” in most versions. But it may surprise you to know that the word actually means “honour.” By ostracizing this man, the Corinthian church were actually honouring him—attempting to bring him to repentance and restoration. Now Paul asks them to forgive him, comfort him, and reaffirm their love for him.

And now, back to chapter 7:

For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what εκδικησις! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. (2 Cor 7:11)

Paul commends the Corinthian Christians concerning their godly behaviour in bringing this man to repentance. First they were indignant, then they sorrowed; they were diligent to help the man to repent, they cleared themselves (of harbouring a sinning man in their midst); they were fearful of the possible negative results to their whole assembly because of what the man had been doing; they had a vehement desire to bring about his repentance; they were zealous in this endeavour. But were they vengeful? NO! They were not taking vengeance on the man; on the contrary their behaviour toward him arose out of love to bring about his repentance. In this, the Corinthians were vindicated in all their behaviour toward the man. Indeed, the NKJV translates the word “εκδικησις” in this passage as “vindication.” Most other version falsely translate the word as “punishment.”

[Paidion]

Also, you mentioned that “and these three are one.” was added to 1 John 5:17, if so, why is it in Greek Interlinear Bibles?

Because some interlinears use Textus Receptus as their Greek texts. Textus Receptus includes the Greek words that were added.
Since that time older Greek manuscripts have been discovered. Virtually all modern Greek editions take these into account.
I have an interlinear called “Interlinear Greek-English New Testament: Nestle Marshall.” It is based on the Nestle Greek text. That Greek text does not contain the words “There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

In Alford’s Greek Testament (with comment), Henry Alford wrote that the words appeared “in a confession of faith drawn up at the end of the fifth century by Eugenius.”

Alford also wrote that the words are not found in ANY Greek manuscript previous to the beginning of the 16th century.

None of the three main codices (still extant) in which the New Testament in Greek is included, contain the added words.
Codex Sinaiticus (4th century)
Codex Vaticanus (4th century)
Codex Alexandrinus (5th century)

So clearly the words were not written by John in his first letter. That is why modern translations do not include the words.

For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (1 John 5:7,8 ESV)
For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (1 John 5: 8 ASV)
For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one. (1 John 5:7,8 Darby)
For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood–and these three are in agreement. (1 John 5:7,8 HCSB)
For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.(1 John 5:7,8 NASB)
Because, three, are they who are bearing witness— The Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood; and, the three, are, witnesses, unto one thing.
(1 John 5:7,8 Rotherham)
There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. (1 John 5:7,8 RSV)
For there are three who testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one. (1 John 5:7,8 WEB)
Because there are three that testify to it, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three agree. (1 John 5:,8 Williams)
because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these—the three—are one; and three are who are testifying in the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one. (1 John 5:7,8 YLT)

Notice that Young’s Literal Translation includes the added words in italics to indicate that they were added.

[Paidion]

Psalm 58:10 makes it clear that the righteous will see the punishment of the wicked, seeing the punishment is required to rejoice.

SHOCKING!!!http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Emoticons/shocking_zpsjax9bvqj.gif

Is this the heart of the righteous—to rejoice in seeing the wicked suffer? And this is REQUIRED in order that the righteous can rejoice?
Do we possess such a heart that delights in the suffering of evil people? When Jesus walked this earth did He rejoice over the suffering of the wicked? Did He ever teach his disciples that the righteous would rejoice over suffering?

Such an attitude is itself wicked—more wicked than even some of the acts of the wicked. Anyone who rejoices over anyone’s suffering, if they persist without repentance, is going to require a severe correction some day.

[anon12438761]

You’re not saying that you actually disagree with these gents??? So do I.

Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences
“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin

Martin Luther

When questioned whether the Blessed will not be saddened by seeing their nearest and dearest tortured answers, “Not in the least.”

Gerhard
“…the Blessed will see their friends and relations among the damned as often as they like but without the least of compassion.”

Andrew Welwood

(speaks of the saints as being) “overjoyed in beholding the vengeance of God ,” and their beholding of the smoke of the torment of the wicked as “a passing delectation.”

Samuel Hopkins

“This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed.”

Bishop Newcomb

“The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance’ by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery.” Catechetical Sermons

Tertullian

“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX]

Augustine

“They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints’. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost.” [The City of God, Book 20, Chapter 22, “What is Meant by the Good Going Out to See the Punishment of the Wicked” & Book 22, Chapter 30, “Of the Eternal Felicity of the City of God, and of the Perpetual Sabbath”]

Thomas Aquinas

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, “Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned,” First Article, “Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . .”]

“The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.

Jonathan Edwards

“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

“The Eternity of Hell Torments” (Sermo

[St_Michael]

The Bible says they will be a horror to all mankind:

For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me”—it is a declaration of Adonai—“so your descendants and your name will endure.”

“And it will come to pass,
that from one New Moon to another,
and from one Shabbat to another,
all mankind will come to bow down before Me,”
says Adonai.

“As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die, and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

[anon12438761]

Nope. Don’t agree. Needs exegesis and commentary imo.

[St_Michael]

Well the context is the new heaven and earth. ALL MANKNIND worship God there. It’s the new creation. They are a HORROR. to all mankind.

Some translations say abhorrence.