The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Of Hitler, Of Bin Laden

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I, for one, am one of those who believes in the eventual repentance (and hence subsequent salvation) of every human being. That includes those whom we might imagine never repenting, such as a Hitler or a Bin Laden. And while it is possible that these might be the last hold outs in eternity (and like some here might opt to the possibility that they would never repent), I believe that God is no respector of persons and their poor souls are His creation as much as we are. Afterall, we are all just flesh.

But my question is: For someone whose life didn’t produce anything of redeemable value in there lifetime here on earth (mindful that only God can judge that), what forseeable value could they have in the life eternal? What opportunities could they have in the eternal in order to redeem their wicked lives? What use would the Lord have of them, other than vessels meet for destruction? What role would they play in the coming kingdom? Would they start out metaphorically scrubbing toilets?

I’m all for seeing the whole world saved, but one would think that a person that didn’t produce fruit in their lifetime is going to find themselves without anything to show for in the coming kingdom, doncha think?

#2

I believe that we are all inherantly immesurably valuable simply because we are created in the image of God. Carrying someone’s “image” is a familial term. My children carry my image. Thus all humans are children of God and inherently worthy of being saved, redeemed, delivered, sanctified, reconciled to God our father. Our value is neither determined nor diminished by anything we do, good or evil, but our value/worth is wholly determined by who we are - children of God.

Furthermore, we do not redeem our wicked lives as you say; rather, God redeems us. I believe we will be rewarded for the good we do, and chastized as is needed for our reconciliation for the evil we have practiced. And note that I used two different word “do” and “practice”. I believe that God is the ultimate good parent, a parent that rejoices in every good thing his child does (do), overlooks mistakes, and deals as gently, wisely, and gracefully as possible with evil attitudes and habits (practices) that we might have, or more correctly, have us. He does this in this life and the life-to-come.

Concerning cleaning toilets in heaven, well, when I stop crying because of having the hell burnt out of me by God’s presence, I’ll be thankful to just clean the toilets.

#3

There are lots of times i wonder what i actually add to this world, so let alone those really nasty types, i wonder about myself. if God has a few things i can do to make me feel more worthy, that’d help…but i have a feeling that what He’ll say is “get over yourself. I made you. that is enough. in you go to love and be loved in my Kingdom for all time.”
i think if someone has caused hurt, on a great or a small scale, it will be necessary to have some form of Truth and Reconciliation (like in South Africa) where crimes are admitted to and forgiven, and the perpetrator and the victim will both be set free by this. i cannot personally imagine such a thing would take a long time…though it might seem an eternity to both.
don’t know if that helps, but those are my rambling thoughts on the issue.

#4

I don’t see heaven as the end goal.

I think this universe is what God wants to redeem, to change, to save with our participation.

In the post- resurrection, post- judgement state I believe that there will still be opportunities; chances of adventure, discovery, virtue, education, progression, heroism, participation. There will always be things to do, places to go, things to learn …

#5

Well, as a janitor, I clean toilets for a living, but since I’m doing it now, and am kind of used to it, I wouldn’t mind doing it later in the hereafter too… well, as long as the hours weren’t too long :wink:

#6

Well said, Matt. Society would collapse overnight were it not for all those hardworking people who do essential things like scrubbing toilets or emptying bedpans in hospitals or collecting our rubbish. Although I agree with pog that ‘heaven’ per se is not the goal of existence, I reckon that in the economy of heaven those who have served will find themselves glorified, while those who have lorded it over the masses may well find themselves cleaning out the heavenly loos :smiley: .

And in regard to Dondi’s original post, I think it’s wrong to talk of people who “didn’t produce anything of redeemable value” in their earthly lives. As you say, Dondi, only God can make that judgement anyway. But surely we can acknowledge that there are redeemable elements to every single person’s life?

Hitler and Bin Laden are commonly held up as avatars of pure evil. But surely this is wrong. Like all psychopaths, Hitler was mentally ill. And just as we don’t blame people for getting cancer or diabetes, should we ‘blame’ Hitler for his psychopathy?

Bin Laden might have been sane, but it has been argued that he became what he did as the direct result of American foreign policy in the Middle East - misguidedly, perhaps; murderously - and hence wickedly - certainly. But if Bin Laden ever did anything with even a mustard seed of selflessness or love in it, which I have no doubt whatsoever that he did, then surely that glowing ember of goodness, no matter how tiny, can be fanned by God into a redeemed and glorified fire?

Cheers

Johnny

#7

Quoted to highlight this. The redemptive work of Jesus Christ is of infinite value. If his work cannot redeem even the worst sinner, then the evil of that sinner is greater/stronger than the work of Christ.

#8

I guess what I was getting at is what we find in I Cor. 3:11-15:

*"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."*

I didn’t mean to imply that Hitler’s or Bin Laden’s souls couldn’t be redeemed. Certainly Christ dies for all, and He, of course, is the foundation by which we must stand upon. But going by the criteria above, it’s hard to see anything of intrinsic value surviving the judgment. I’m sure we will all suffer varying degrees of loss, but hopefully have produced some measurable fruit by which we can expect a reward. But it would appear to our human eyes that people of Hitler’s or Bin Laden’s stature did not produce any of the foundations of gold, silver, or precious stones, but rather the wood, hay, and stubble of worthless and evil works. (And BTW, these names I threw out is only representative of my argument of people who did not produce any appreciatble works in their life to merit reward). Even granting that God still redeems them through Christ, their works are still judged and burned accordingly.

But if the Kingdom of Heaven is to make any sense in allowing those people who never did anything worthwhile in the Lord while here on earth, it is hard to imagine what role they would play in the Kingdom. (And certainly there is room for a process of forgiveness and healing from those whom they seriously wronged) But where would they start in God’s Kingdom rule? What function would they play? How would they make up any loss they suffered through the judgement of God in order to be a viable member of the Kingdom? Granted, there is all eternity to make up time, but certainly they would have to start in the lowest level, the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Hence, toilet bowl scrubbing.