The Evangelical Universalist Forum

On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Hi Sturmy, the above can be found HERE.

Thanks Melchi and Dave.

Hi Steve…

This is absolutely correct.

Again yes… biblical “eschatology” was all about the end of the world, that is or should I say was the end of the Mosaic world i.e., the Old Covenant “age”. As I understand it there is NO eschatology relevant to the New Covenant age, that is… the new covenant age has no end. This world will always populate the next ad infinitum.

Well actually, the “revelation” was of “Jesus Christ” and of things “soon” to occur… Jesus had previously prophesied such days and now here is John a good while later commissioned to give relevant details etc.

As to an early dating of Revelation – Kenneth Gentry’s BOOK or PDFstates the case well, IMO. I might add by the way that Gentry is a PARTIAL prêterist.

From my perspective “the world” being judged was the old covenant world that was found wanting Heb 8:7-8]. You have to remember that in spite of previous devastation and deportation [722BC and 587BC] Israelites and in particular their culture survived. Their world was not limited to Palestine, in fact it was for this very reason along with the common Grecian world (trade) language and the Roman roads that traversed the kingdom carrying the gospel message that the early church was predominately viewed as “a Jewish sect”. Hence Paul’s affirmation… “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.Acts 15:21 cf Jn 7:35; Acts 2:5, 26:7; Jas 1:1; 1Pet 1:1

John’s ‘Revelation’ speaks of those who “…shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire…”. The ‘lake of fire/second death’ was much more than a picture of ‘physical death’ – DEATH like in Israel’s former captivity actually meant EXILE. Yes many literally died, but in covenantal terms “death is exile”. Comprehending this helps us to see Paul’s words to the Thessalonians with more clarity, appreciating the historical context as opposed to applying something more ethereal…

2Thess 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…

As I understand it “eternal destruction” speaks not of longevity but of TOTALITY – it is qualitative NOT quantitative. History bears witness to the fact that in the aftermath of the Ad70 Judgment a good portion of the Jews were taken captive as slaves back to Rome and paraded by the conquering Titus as part of the spoils of the Roman-Jewish Wars. These captives were all very much alive, yet having had “their part” in the “lake of fire” (Israel’s/Jerusalem’s AD66-70 conflagration) were now banished forever… permanently exiled [DEATH] away fromthe presence of the Lord” in Jerusalem – their world had come crashing down and they were as dead-men-walking… judged and found wanting.

Thanks davo that’s helpful.

Hi Richard:

Out on vacation last week; just noticed this. I suppose first of all I’m intrigued by the breadth of your personal musings about life and theology!
I mean, why this, why now…

Within my denomination of upbringing (and where I currently reside; very Historicist! eg see sturmy’s notes…) there is this inside joke among the more bold… We Adventists (ie the SDA) have no need for hell; (we - though not me! - are annihilationists as you may recall…) we do however have a perfect substitute: the fear engendered by our own particular eschatology – which renders our Second Coming scenarios (and up-leading events) just as fearsome as any hell!

I’ve no fondness for the subject myself. It’s been nothing but a source of fear and trembling and uncertainty. So my bias is inherent and frightfully strong. I’ve found discussions of eschatology mostly as negative; ie quite counter to any notion of gospel (GOOD news folks!!) one might have.

In my experience then, Eschatology serves merely to select and empower a certain enlightened few with, you know, the “special knowledge” that can make one feel so smug and certain and (let’s just admit it) self-righteous… Because, you know, we “know” (wink wink! :wink: what those other less insightful bible readers don’t “know”. It was, in short, a mechanism of exclusion, and control (he with the secret knowledge rules!) and (in retrospect) frightfully manipulative… Little wonder then that for me, my dawning realization of the true God (for me, in ’94…) involved a heavy dose of reworking of my understandings of …. Eschatology.

But to cut through a whole lot of anguish and questions and thought, my response to this question of your’s Richard is, (apologies for sounding crude or irreverent…) so what? All biblical eschatology culminates/is realized in 70 A.D. So what? Jesus came again… Final Judgement… Hell… All over and behind us… So what?? Or, with a nod to my Historicist upbringing (yes, the very one which left me in a tetanic fear…) Most, or maybe NONE of it was fulfilled — it’s ALL going to happen sometime… out there… in the future… gotta “be ready” … Again I’d ask; so what?

For, it seems too obvious to even need to mention, and just think of all to whom this has applied over the ages since the Cross, here we are. Still. Looking, waiting, suffering, yearning, and asking - over and over again until we faint of exhaustion - Why? Oh God? and… How Long Oh God?? The majesty & victory of the Cross simply fades away into the very thing faith always was… waiting out the storm, catching fleeting glimpses and glimmers of the (all too often far off) Kingdom, and then, we die… Die just like those other hero’s of faith. (Heb 11) Die in hope – not having received the promise… still waiting for that heavenly country…

Eschatology fulfilled? So what… Life goes on. And we find ourselves asking the same questions, facing the same dilemmas also faced and asked by vast throngs who’ve trod the way before us.
And no, we’re not leaving Him; we affirm, as did Peter so long ago, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal Life… we know You are the Holy One of God…

Of what use, then, is eschatology? What happened, and when? … what will happen, and when? So what? Why do we need to know with such specificity??

I’ve known many who hold that eschatology exists so that, when it happens (is fulfilled) we can all say “see! - God really does know the future!” which I suppose is to generate confidence in God. Except, as you’ve noted, we can’t even agree that “it” has even happened! To see eschatology as indication of God’s complete foreknowledge, or as refutation of open theism, misses the point – or so it seems to me…

The only way I can even begin to make a coherent place for eschatology is to find a place for it within the overarching narrative of God. God – origin of everything, thus a personal being, the Creator ‘invested’ in His creation. But something’s amiss; call it the ‘fall’, or call it the painful journey towards freedom and right doing from our initial condition of ambiguity, self-centeredness, delusion. Thus, the central actions of God involve redemption. Of not just us, but of the entire creation.

Whether the process of redemption, or “re-creation”, is itself part of, or necessary to the overarching goals of God’s creation I cannot say for sure. (ie following Talbott’s suggestion that we are born into ambiguity, ignorance, and prone to delusion…)

Necessary to this process – and surely we should be able to all agree that it’s mostly a process, not just an instantaneous churning out of perfected beings – is time. Things just need to work out, evolve; cause and effect becoming ever clearer even as the revelation of God’s way’s & means become clearer. (ie without the dark glass; knowing even as we are known etc) This lack of complete clarity however, even as we learn and grow and move, can be extremely anxiety producing as we are tempted to despair, lose hope; our faith shudders.

Into this setting then, this narrative, eschatology begins to make perfect sense when seen as an indispensable part of God’s redemption. It is a framework of history, part and parcel of our narrative, which serves to remind us, over and over as necessary, of the truths on which our hope rests. God is there; God is cause; God is personal; God is involved; we are not alone; God is compassionate; God is redeeming; and most of all, God is victorious. Any eschatology that doesn’t end with a completely victorious God is no eschatology at all.

The point of an eschatology then is not to raise our predictive IQ so we can just plug correct events in with correct dates. Rather, it is to encourage the despairing, rekindle their hope, rebuild courage and strengthen faith. The point is, God stands astride all of history… As we all should be painfully aware, there are those who follow Christ today whose loyalties are costing them their lives. We argue finer points of theology; they’re getting killed. I should think that an eschatology that speaks to God’s current intimate involvement in our Redemptive drama would be rather more pertinent, and powerful, than one which only affected “them” way back “then”. If belief in complete fulfillment “way back then” fosters confidence today (and why wouldn’t it?) then that is fine too of course and that eschatology will also have served its useful purpose.

Or something like that…

Thanks for the thoughts Richard!


steve7150 wrote:It says Jesus is returning to judge the world and the dead will be raised and judged and those whose names are not in the book of life will go into the lake of fire.

From my perspective “the world” being judged was the old covenant world that was found wanting [Heb 8:7-8]. You have to remember that in spite of previous devastation and deportation [722BC and 587BC] Israelites and in particular their culture survived. Their world was not limite

Sorry i have not had much free time, hopefully after July 4th i’ll have more. I read individuals being raised from the dead in Rev 20 and individually being judged and any individual not found in the book of life being put in the lake of fire.
This is nowhere to found in Full Preterism. Also i read in scripture an end to evil at some point also not found in FP. The dating of Revelation is not an issue as for the Historicist and Idealist view it can be written at either date. The things happening soon could have begun in 70AD and simply continued through the church age. However sometimes God described things in the present tense that happened hundreds of years later like Isaiah 53 or Genesis 3.15. Paul said God speaks of things that are not as though they are (Rom 4) therefore the word “soon” may or not mean it the way we normally would take it.

Again… from my perspective the “world” being judged was the “old covenant” world that had failed miserably Heb 8:7-8] and was “about to” μέλλω] “pass away”, as per the likes of Heb 8:13; 2Cor 3:11; 1Jn 2:8.

Although my view of pantelism is in the fully prêteristic camp I certainly do not speak for all full prêterists, far from it, however… as I understand it, this is not some cosmic endless post mortem scene, but rather refers to the Mosaic world’s “end time”, i.e., ‘the lake of fire’ is a metonymic euphemism used to express the conflagrations that were to befall Palestine in AD66-70, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in particular the Temple, the paragon of LIFE in the old covenant “world”. Those who remained faithful to Israel’s covenant renewal as founded in Christ “enduring to the end” were delivered, that is, “saved” out of harm’s way, as per Mt 24:13; Lk 21:21.

Those who “had their part” in the lake of fire Rev 21:8] suffered tremendous loss in the Roman-Jewish wars of the period, and particularly so with Jerusalem’s destructive inferno of AD70… some to the point of DEATH, for others deprivation and DEPORTATION to Rome.

Again, history bears witness to the fact that in the aftermath of this AD70 “Judgment” a good portion of Jewish captives were taken back to Rome and paraded as slaves before the conquering Titus as part of the spoils of war. These captives were all still very much alive, yet having had “their part” in the “lake which burns with fire” were now banished “forever”… permanently EXILED, i.e., covenant DEATH aka “the Second Death” away from the presence of the Lord in Jerusalem – their world had come crashing down; they had been judged and found wanting.

These were the ones banished from ever again being found in “the Presence of the Lord” (at the Temple) as per Paul’s words to the Thessalonians… These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power… 2Thess 1:9

And so it was in contradistinction… they had “no place” or “part” in ‘the Book of Life’ – a euphemism with undertones in part saying no place found for them in the land of the living as per the likes of Ex 32:32; Isa 4:3; Psa 69:28; Rom 9:3.

Steve, which text/s of “scripture” do you actually have in mind that mention “an end to evil”?

Hey everyone,
Has anybody considered that while all the stuff to Jerusalem did happen, that it is also a type/shadow of the future, meaning the same bad stuff will happen again and that Jesus really will come back in the clouds to save us all from killing each other.
Also, when the Bible says that Jerusalem will not be built again, I think it meant it literally in the sense of a nuclear war. :open_mouth:
The preterist view (without any future event) seems to miss out on that fact that global events have gotten progressively worse over time. There is more bloodshed, war, immorality, hypocrisy in the churches, broken families, disasters, famines, monetary debt, and general evil in the last couple of centuries (read: World War I, II, Holocaust, etc.) than ever. The biggest evidence comes from the fact that secularization corrodes Christian values in America and Europe to the point that Christians are unsure of whether God cares. That’s what I call mass manipulation by ‘humanist’ leaders who supposedly represent the ignorant people. Eventually, the leaders will be exposed for their lies and people will cry out for Jesus to save them and bring back order. Jesus gonna boss, man. :sunglasses:
BTW, I come from an Adventist background but now I’m an Universalist who believes that Jesus will come back and sort this whole mess out soon. I don’t mean to be negative, just keeping it real.
Sincerely (yes, I mean everything I said),
Nick :slight_smile:

P.S. Jesus loves you. You’ll be fine if you put your trust in Him. :wink:

Hi Nick, :smiley:

I love your post despite disagreeing with almost everything in it! :wink: I thought quite similarly in the past but now I’m older …and well, just OLDER! I may be wiser but that’s more debatable… Anyway, there is a lot that could be discussed here as you’ve laid out some things here that are very provocative regarding things getting worse in the last few centuries and the corrosion of “Christian values.” I sense a new thread arising from this and wonder if you’d be game to pursue this? If so, I’ll start a new one using this post as an intro and off we go! :smiley:

Hey Alec,
post a link, please.
thank you,

Will do! :wink:

Preterism is really a neat concept that too many Bible readers have not considered. The idea that I am reading something prophesied in the future that is actually in the past from my time-frame is often over-looked. The average evangelical theologian is often scared by the term preterism, but I think with thoughtful discussion we could get every Christian to agree that the Bible has spoken of at least some events using the future tense that are already in the past. Any such statement is a preteristic statement. In fact most Christians hold to some form of this.

The question then is where to draw the line. How do we understand the multitude of statements that Jesus and his Word makes about the future? What has already happened and what remains in the future for mankind?

One thing predicted in the future is the glorification of the God’s people, the complete removal of sin and the perfection of our minds, bodies, and souls. In fact this future event is SO certain that Romans 8:30 even speaks of it in the past tense. Yet I think each of us could consider our aches, pains, and struggles with sin and realize that we are not yet glorified. Of course one might try to follow Mary Baker Eddy into Christian Science and the denial of pain. One could also argue that this temporal life is simply an endless incubator bringing new people into this broken world in order to find Jesus and that glorification happens for all upon death. However, this simple model misses the Biblical teaching about the rapture and resurrection as well as other things.

One question I am researching along these lines is whether the White horse in Revelation 6 is the same event as the White horse in Revelation 19. One could try to understand Revelation as a prophesy of events and judgments, concerning Jerusalem or otherwise, beginning with the White horse in Revelation 6. John then returns to the same white horse in Revelation 19 to communicate that these events he just described in the body of the book are now beginning. This literary device would be called a framing-effect. I’ve tried to understand it that way, but after some effort it seems too cumbersome.

Presently I’ve simply settled to a partial-preterist stand while trying to build a consistent understanding of where to draw the lines in what is past and what is still future. The challenge is having a thorough enough understanding of history past while wading through the highly symbolic language of apocalyptic literature.

I have proposed a chart of redemptive history on this page. I’d love to have your feedback there.

Hi Jeff,

I guess that as a full preterist and a universalist, I have found that to come to these conclusions I have had to unlearn many assumptions I have had over the years.

I am not sure why most all Christians believe that Christ came to earth, born of a virgin, did many miracles, taught of many incredible truths, was put to death, died, was buried, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven… We believe all these things (and I may add none of us has seen with our own eyes) and yet many will not believe that he came for all, to reconcile humanity to the Father, that he bore the sin of all the world, that he came to completely fulfil the covenantal requirements to the house of Israel, that through a partial hardening of heart, ALL have been Included… in short, Christ has done everything he said he would do.

As to sins, pains, sufferings, glorification etc… I will quote George McDonald:

God does not, by the instant gift of his Spirit, make us always feel right, desire good, love purity, aspire after him and his will. Therefore either he will not, or he cannot. If he will not, it must be because it would not be well to do so. If he cannot, then he would not if he could; else a better condition than God’s is conceivable to the mind of God-a condition in which he could save the creatures whom he has made, better than he can save them. The truth is this: He wants to make us in his own image, choosing the good, refusing the evil. How should he effect this if he were always moving us from within, as he does at divine intervals, towards the beauty of holiness? God gives us room to be; does not oppress us with his will; “stands away from us,” that we may act from ourselves, that we may exercise the pure will for good. Do not, therefore, imagine me to mean that we can do anything of ourselves without God. If we choose the right at last, it is all God’s doing, and only the more his that it is ours, only in a far more marvellous way his than if he had kept us filled with all holy impulses precluding the need of choice. For up to this very point, for this very point, he has been educating us, leading us, pushing us, driving us, enticing us, that we may choose him and his will, and so be tenfold more his children, of his own best making, in the freedom of the will found our own first in its loving sacrifice to him, for which in his grand fatherhood he has been thus working from the foundations of the earth, than we could be in the most ecstatic worship flowing from the divinest impulse, without this willing sacrifice. For God made our individuality as well as, and a greater marvel than, our dependence; made our apartness from himself, that freedom should bind us divinely dearer to himself, with a new and inscrutable marvel of love; for the Godhead is still at the root, is the making root of our individuality, and the freer the man, the stronger the bond that binds him to him who made his freedom. He made our wills, and is striving to make them free; for only in the perfection of our individuality and the freedom of our wills call we be altogether his children. This is full of mystery, but can we not see enough in it to make us very glad and very peaceful?

Macdonald, George . Unspoken Sermons Series I, II, and III (p. 75).

I kind of like how he puts this. Having pasted the above, :wink: I have no problem with the notion that Christ did all he said he would do. And we are exactly where the Father wants us.


1Co 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
1Co 15:24 then comes the end,

(if we consider the end, what is talked about here, is the ending of the age Christ spoke of=70AD destruction of the Temple)

1Co 15:24 (continued) when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Co 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Once again, I have no problem with believing Paul saying that Christ is doing (has done in our time) everything he said he would do. The above has everything to do with God’s covenant with Israel. We keep trying to make it into a personal evangelical revelation.

Wright puts it like this:

Paul’s understanding of God’s accomplishment in the Messiah is that this single purpose, this plan-through-Israel-for-the-world, this reason-God-called-Abraham (you can see why I prefer the shorthand “covenant”; this is going to be a very long book if I have to use multihyphenated phrases all the time), finally came to fruition with Jesus Christ. Here is the point which has so puzzled John Piper that he thinks a “covenantal” reading would be a belittling of Paul’s meaning. The single-plan-through-Israel-for-the-world was called into being by God as the means of addressing and solving the plight of the whole world. The “covenant,” in my shorthand, is not something other than God’s determination to deal with evil once and for all and so put the whole creation (and humankind with it) right at last. When will it become clear to the geocentrists? Dealing with sin, saving humans from it, giving them grace, forgiveness, justification, glorification—all this was the purpose of the single covenant from the beginning, now fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Wright, N. T. (2009-09-25). Justification: God’s Plan & Paul’s Vision (pp. 94-95). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

Just my opinion.

Thanks :smiley:


Hi qaz

I guess I see all as all inclusive. Seems clear to me. :smiley:

As I understand it from an “inclusive prêterist” perspective, aka pantelism… I would say the exact opposite to be true. In fact it was 1Cor 15 that that led me as a full prêterist to see the all-inclusive nature of God’s grace – TO ALL. I’m not making a case for “universalism” per se but rather “inclusion” – similar but with significant differences that foster different conclusions and assumptions that to my mind negate and quash a lot of unnecessary and manufactured doctrinal contradictions.

IF as Pantelism contends – in the AD70 Parousia of Christ the LAST enemy to be destroyed was “the death” (1Cor 15:26); and IF along with “the death” its paralysing venom of “the sin” duly empowered by the “the lawall suffered demise (1Cor 15:56); and further… IF God having reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col 1:20); THEN regardless of what you or I or anybody else thinks or reasons – God has no more enemies.

Now even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men’s feeble minds they consider themselves enemies of God, from HIS perspective they are not (Col 1:21), period. The logic is clear-cut – IF from the pantelist perspective “the last enemy” to be destroyed was “the death” aka spiritual separation (that which the first Adam wrought was that which the last Adam rectified), then a consistent prêterism must dictate that there can be NO MORE ENEMIES thereafter; therefore God has no more enemies, period! And thus… IF God has made peace, and the Scriptures testify He has, THEN who are we to question His gracious will?

Needless to say I became the bane of existence in prêt circles being duly labelled “a dirty universalist!!” – lol.

If all is fulfilled then an unequivocal YES!

Some remain unconvinced but I suspect this is due to looking at life from our fleshly perspective; always a deficiency. Consider the logic… IF “Christ in you” can be relegated to the scrap heap based purely on the human observation of judging a person’s life i.e., their works, THEN no Christian can or could claim that reality that Paul claims to be true.

Just because a lot of humanity does not live as though God were present within does not mean He is not. Again simplifying it… just because a lot of believers do not live as though Christ were truly present within does not mean He is not.

I read the text with the prêteristic hermeneutic of “audience relevance” in mind, meaning… BEFORE I read “myself” back into the text I ask, HOW did this (the text) have meaning for those to whom it was specifically written, i.e., what did the original audience understand these words to mean? NOT what do these words mean to me? That is secondary and should be governed by that which is primary.

Which “world” were they not to love? …the one the majority of early converts came from, i.e., Judaism – the OC “world”. THAT world (the one Jesus came to redeem) was under “condemnation” and those who clung to it would duly go down with it, as per Jn 3:16-18, 36.

Again it was “the world” of the old covenant that was coming to naught, or as the immediate writer states “is passing away” i.e., in the process thereof of demise…

The brother who remained in the practice of Pharisaic judgmentalism, i.e., “darkness” was hindering the “true light from shining”. The likes of Diotrephes (3Jn 1:9) was such a one and was in danger of the very likes of the Pharisaic Lawyers, as per Lk 11:52 cf. Acts 15:10; Rom 1:18. This then is the likes of the behaviour 1Jn 2:9 refers to… NOT living out the fullness of NC grace.

Again this ‘passing world’ is in line with the writer to the Hebrews…

Note the then present diminishing nature of the OC world, said to be in the process of… “becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” There is likewise Paul’s words…

Again the OC world was “passing away” and “what remains is much more glorious” i.e., the NC world. Jesus’ disciples asked…

As can be seen there IS historical context determining HOW the relevant audiences understood their world and what was coming upon it, and in particular the words spoken in relation to it.

But to reiterate, and this does need taking note of…

In terms of ECT or some misapplying of the LOF, no! I’m somewhat agnostic on what I would see as ‘justice postmortem’ only because I don’t see it dealt with that clearly in scripture. Now someone might appeal to the likes of…

Again understanding “audience relevance” and “apocalyptic genre” this torturous torment lasting “forever and ever” speaks to the TOTALITY, completeness or fullness of judgment, NOT its length. Not only that… the context itself shows the timeframe of Jerusalem’s ‘last days’ (AD70) where the great Harlot Babylon, i.e., JERUSALEM is fallen.

But even if one wants, for example, to ignore the historic parlance and still claim the likes of postmortem ECT for this passage above then they can be greatly comforted knowing that even as they are likewise “in the presence of the Lamb” they too will be able to speak, as per Lk 16:26, with their lost loved ones as they writhe in flames; though there be a “great gulf fixed” between them at least they will be close enough to communicate… Jesus thought of everything, oh joy!! :smiling_imp:

Hebrews 10:31 says it’s a scary thing to fall into the hands of the living God. In John 8:24 Jesus warns of the danger of dying in one’s sins. These seem to be clear references to post-portem punishment.

But even if the Bible didn’t deal clearly with the issue, we could conclude based on logic that if Christianity is true, there will be post-portem punishment. (Whether or not it’s unending is a whole other issue).
qaz Posts: 39Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Sure, some will be beaten with many lashes, some with few. It’s proportionate.

Which is why I haven’t made that carte blanch claim.

It’s not that they can’t be true post parousia, BUT that those verses’ primary and more immediate focus and applicability was to the THEN suffering church as per ‘the tribulation’ and their need for unity of “love” in the face of division… as per the likes of 1Jn 2:19; Acts 15:1, 5, 24

AD70 was the end game with regards to Israel’s redemption. Any “believer” prior or since who claims to love God and yet hates his brother can be challenged to their apparent hypocrisy… I’m NOT arguing against that point.

Well no, I don’t. You’re saying I’m saying things that I’ve NOT actually said, i.e., you’re making false assumptions. What I’ve said is… by virtue of the parousia (AD70) God has no more enemies, period. AD70 hasn’t stopped anyone from coming to errant conclusions about God and so having ‘attitude’ against God… but that doesn’t faze God NOR change the reality of His grace covers all, dare I say is “all in all” – some people in this life “get it” and are blessed accordingly – the rest will (on the whole) be pleasantly surprised when they step through death’s doorway.

Your word “seem” is a massive qualifier! There is nothing in Heb 10:31 that requires such dire straits as referencing a post-mortem calamity; Israel’s history was replete with examples of what it meant “to fall into the hands of the living God” IN THIS LIFE!

Again in Jn 8:24… nothing apart from of doom IN THIS LIFE not knowing the forgiveness that was theirs, i.e., consequentially dying in their sins. WHERE are you getting “post-mortem” from in this text?

All well and good, so ok, logically state your case accordingly… :nerd:

Here is some of my logic.

  1. The wicked dead are punished in a place called Hades. The man died and was buried. Luke 16:19-31
  2. The righteous dead are raised to life to reign with Christ. Revelation 20:1-6
  3. The wicked dead are extracted from Hades after the Millennial time period. Hades is not empty, but will be emptied. Revelation 20:11-15
  4. Fallen angels are likewise being held for future judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6


  1. There is temporary postmortem punishment for unbelievers
  2. There is differential blessed postmortem treatment for believers
  3. There are redemptive events still in the future
  4. There is reason to fear the Lord’s wrath for he still punishes the disobedient
  1. The wicked dead are punished in a place called Hades. The man died and was buried. Luke 16:19-31
  2. The righteous dead are raised to life to reign with Christ. Revelation 20:1-6
  3. The wicked dead are extracted from Hades after the Millennial time period. Hades is not empty, but will be emptied. Revelation 20:11-15
  4. Fallen angels are likewise being held for future judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6

There will be a lot of varying opinions here. For example I’m undecided on a millennial period after Christ returns or does he simply return on the last day. Also I think the unrighteous dead are simply dead until judgment day. In Luke 16, I think is a parable about Israel losing it’s favor as I think the rich man is Israel and Lazarus represents gentiles. Hades simply means grave as it is the greek word for the Hebrew word “shoel.”


Joh 8:3 The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
Joh 8:4 they *said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 “Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”
Joh 8:6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Joh 8:8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
Joh 8:10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?”
Joh 8:11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”]

You say for God not to punish unrepentant sinners would mean that God does not care about sin any more. Is that how YOU take the above account of the woman caught in adultery?