Davo’s Pantelism does not necessarily reflect what all other Pantelists believe on this matter, and he may be aware of the various views that some other Pantelists have in this regard. Davo himself (see below) has made quite a few comments on the topic, that clearly indicate his position.
If evil, suffering, sin & death continue forever in Pantelism, then could a universalism in which everyone is simultaneously saved in the sense that includes immortality, abundant life and full freedom from such negative things ever be achieved? Apparently not. Yet davo says God is now, in some sense, already “all in all” (1 Cor.15:28).
The impression i get from some of his comments is that he does not care to be labelled a “universalist”. Additionally, of course, he has often expressed opposition to purgatorial forms of universalism. Such as in this thread refuting Ultra Universalism with Scripture:Ultra universalism
Some people, however, do percieve universalism in Pantelism, (even if that is not a universalism in the sense of sin, suffering, evil & death being removed from all intelligent beings & the universe):
"Because of the inclusive nature of pantelism and that it accepts the authority of the Bible some view it as a form of Christian universalism, with some referring to it as a “universalist version of full preterism.”"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelism
“Pantelism is the universalist version of full preterism. Those who hold this view see all the prophecies of the Old and New Testaments fulfilled in the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D…They insist we’ve been living in the New Heaven and Earth since around 110 A.D… John spoke of it as a time when God would dwell with men, wipe away all their tears, and put an end to mourning and death (Rev. 21:3-4.) By what stretch of the imagination can such words apply to the last 1,905 years?.. A Biblical view of universal salvation is based on the understanding that the Greek adjective (and its cognates) that our English Bibles translate as eternal, or everlasting (and their cognates), literally means age-enduring, or pertaining to an age…Pantelists (or Full Preterists) therefore have no basis for saying that all ages are past, or that the present age is endless… There was a reason Shakespear[e] called this world a vale of tears, does it really honor God to say that this is the best He can do? Is this the new heaven and earth that John foresaw? Pantelists and preterists never address this.”
" I did not know that Max King/Tim King and Presence Ministries promoted universalism in the form of pantelism." http://livebytr.proboards.com/thread/115/pantelism
“Does King’s Covenant Eschatology Lead to Universalism?”:
“But I do agree with you that biblical universalism is a natural conclusion of full preterism.”
Davo himself said "…my view of pantelism is in the fully prêteristic camp…"On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell
Well, what other “camp” could it be in? Is Pantelism not always a form of Full Preterism?
Davo reveals something of his own viewpoint here:
" I’m an ‘inclusionist’ as opposed to a ‘universalist’ as in I reject the typical universalist rationales around “hell” and “the lake of fire” which for the most part are no different in essence than that held by infernalists…"On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell
Here we get a bit more insight into his opinions re universalism:
" I’m not making a case for “universalism” per se but rather “inclusion” – similar but with significant differences that foster different conclusions and assumptions that to my mind negate and quash a lot of unnecessary and manufactured doctrinal contradictions."On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell
Here he states:
“Pantelism most definitely believes that all humanity has been reconciled to God – but reconciliation and its outworking, quite apart from what may transpire post mortem, is completely pertinent to this life.” http://www.pantelism.com/aboutus.html
With the following comment on 1 Tim.4:9-11 he seems to imply that all are already saved & that Lk.19:10 has been accomplished, which begs the question, what has all humanity been saved from. Doesn’t His mission of salvation to the lost include things such as evil, suffering, sin and death? Yet all these things continue.
"Paul’s words to Timothy he says are worthy of acceptance by all, and that as such are words worthy of being repeated and proclaimed, that: God is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. The apostle Luke further tells us that God accomplished His most gracious saving work on man’s behalf through Jesus Christ where Luke records the words of the Saviour: “for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost“. One can rightly ask – who is it that fits into this category of “that which was lost” and did Jesus fulfil his mission given by the Father in so seeking and saving these lost? Pantelism agrees with the answer that Jesus indeed did accomplish fully ALL of his saving mission."https://pantelism.wordpress.com/
Similarly he states at post #80:
"This is the problem with “universalism”… you have an INCOMPLETE salvation, always waiting, waiting, waiting for salvation to be “realized” as though Jesus never really quite got it finished. NO!! It is finished!!"On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell
Yet it is Pantelism that has suffering & death continuing forever and the abolition (1 Cor.15:26; cf. Rev.21:1-4) of it never “realized”.
In the following article he misrepresents universalism with this statement:
“Unlike the general thrust of universalism, pantelism readily agrees that NOT “every” ALL of Scripture is universal in scope nor is “every” reference to WORLD global.” http://pantelism.com/BedfellowsorBedlam.htm
He also argues that the reconciliation of Col.1:20 is an already past fulfilled event & that God now has no more enemies: "IF then as Pantelism contends, through the AD70 Parousia of Christ the LAST enemy to be destroyed was “the death” [1Cor 15:26Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)]; and IF along with the death its paralysing venom of the sin duly empowered by the law likewise suffered demise [1Cor 15:56]; and further… IF God by virtue of this, having reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself through the blood of Christ’s cross [Col 1:20], THEN regardless of what you or I or anybody else thinks or reasons – LOGICALLY… with the LAST enemy gone – God therefore has no more enemies."http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/forum/topics/the-great-white-throne
On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell
This site allegedly quotes davo as follows:
“If Animals = Gentiles = Israelites, and “all Israel shall be saved”, then that must mean that all Gentiles are duly saved. Even science would agree with this… evolution says we are all animals therefore we must all ultimately be Israelites… thus all saved. So, as it turns out universalism must really be true!!” Animals and Gentiles”
Regarding davo’s views of postmortem events & destinies, in 2015 qaz asked davo “Do you believe in post-mortem punishment?” & davo replied:
“In terms of ECT or some misapplying of the LOF, no! I’m somewhat agnostic on what I would see as ‘justice postmortem’ only because I don’t see it dealt with that clearly in scripture. Now someone might appeal to the likes of…”
“Rev 14:10b-11a He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,…”
“Again understanding “audience relevance” and “apocalyptic genre” this torturous torment lasting “forever and ever” speaks to the TOTALITY, completeness or fullness of judgment, NOT its length. Not only that… the context itself shows the timeframe of Jerusalem’s ‘last days’ (AD70) where the great Harlot Babylon, i.e., JERUSALEM is fallen.”
"But even if one wants, for example, to ignore the historic parlance and still claim the likes of postmortem ECT for this passage above then they can be greatly comforted knowing that even as they are likewise “in the presence of the Lamb” they too will be able to speak, as per Lk 16:26, with their lost loved ones as they writhe in flames; though there be a “great gulf fixed” between them at least they will be close enough to communicate… Jesus thought of everything, oh joy!!"On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell
So, in davo’s Pantelism, torments “for ever and ever” (literally “into the ages of the ages”) only last for the period "of Jerusalem’s ‘last days’ " of AD 70. Forever and ever has nothing to do with duration of time, only quality.
Later in the same thread davo expresses his “suspicion”:
"I have a sneaking suspicion there hasn’t been a person born who has then come to stand in His Presence that hasn’t then duly “repented”.
There again, in post #78, he says:
““The cross did not remove the existence of sin… yet.” Correct… “death” however takes care of that on all levels! (Rom 6:7). IF there is yet MORE price to be paid for sin postmortem, which in due course said payment rectifies, THEN what need of Christ’s Cross was there in the first place IF some alleged future rectifying by man settles said problem – you’ve just denuded the point and power of Christ’s Cross! Can you not see that?”
Seemingly implying that physical death is our saviour from sin. Does it, then, follow that a suicidal person may commit hare-kari & experience immediate & endless postmortem bliss in God’s presence?
He adds at post #80:
“Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin” and “…“death” is the end of sin and thus by logical extension any associated punishment.”
There goes postmortem punishment. Davo rejects it. At least back in 2015 he did. And his recent comments re postmortem punishment from 2017-2018 that i’ve seen are generally much the same as those in this post.
At post #82 he insists:
“I mention nothing about the just or unjust-ness of “post-mortem punishment” – I merely challenge the validity of claiming “postmortem punishment” according to Scriptural evidence… so far you haven’t made your case. Certainly IF I were God there would be a settling of the books in terms of punishment, much punishment (good thing I’m not God)… but that’s my limited human understanding colouring my expectations; I suspect all our expectations will be blown out of the water, so to speak.”
And from the same post he appears to argue that postmortem punishment would be “denuding the Cross of its power”:
“So, according to your theology “All are already justified in Christ” – what Scriptural evidence does your position provide showing that once “justified” postmortem punishment STILL prevails? What does THAT say about the so-called ‘justifying power of Christ’ as per your position? (again denuding the Cross of its power)”
In post #85 of that thread Davo said:
“Like the ancient’s of the flood Ananias Sapphira paid the temporal price for their really bad choice i.e., the loss of their lives, period. That does not IMO equate to being “damned” temporarily or endlessly beyond THIS LIFE… their untimely deaths WAS the “judgement” they suffered.”
I fail to see how dropping dead instantly is a “price” paid “for their really bad choice” if in the next moment they are in endless bliss. It sounds more like a favor & great blessing for their “bad choice” made. They would get the “hell” out of this world of suffering & into “glory”. They didn’t even experience a slow agonizing death as many people do. A total win-win for them in every way, if there are no after death torments awaiting them.
At post #90 he seems to agree with this remark defining “hell” as 70 AD:
“You can’t point to AD 70 as your definition of hell without AD 70 also being your definition of the Second Coming.”
Postmortem punishment per Lk.16:19-31 is denied here (post #91):
"Lk 16 is a parable and NOT a theological breakdown of postmortem existence pre-cross.
At post #106 in that thread Davo agreed with this remark:
“Scripture proves that the wicked dead are still detained in Hades after the cross, Revelation 20:5, 13.”
In post #111 it reads:
“As a pantelist “the lake of fire” doesn’t exist. John’s ‘the lake of fire’ equates to Jesus’ ‘Gehenna’ i.e., the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. This was Israel’s (Jerusalem’s) “second death” aka “lake of fire” – the first death being Nebuchadnezzar’s 587BC rout and ruination of the same.”
So it seems, according to Davo’s version of Pantelism, that the torments into the ages of the ages (Rev.20:10) began and ended in 70 AD, or thereabouts. So “ages of the ages” were next to nothing in duration.
Post #116 reads:
“As I understand it… texts that are “interpreted” along ECT lines in fact refer to Gehenna aka Jesus’ prophetic judgments relative to the AD70 DoJ. I agree 100% with “annihilation” IF and I repeat IF annihilation refers and relates purely to the physicality of man’s existence, no more no less, and as such has NO bearing beyond the physical realm…”
Davo adds a reply in post #122 to the question “Would heaven not be chaos if unrepentant sinners were allowed in?” He says:
“What makes you think your “unrepentant sinners” wouldn’t immediately drop in a heartbeat to the knee in awe-inspired reverence at the brightness of His majesty and presence? Any latent doubt or chaos on behalf of so-called ‘unbelievers’ would evaporate in a flash, IMO.”
In post #131 (see also post #152) he opines Phil.2:9-11 as the Scriptural evidence for that statement:
“Like I said… EVERY knee will drop. And IF “those under the earth” isn’t a direct reference to the physically departed, i.e., “the dead” then I’d like to know to whom you ascribe such? IOW… there’s the scriptural evidence for it!”
Again in post #131 re “everlasting punishment” that occurred in and, it seems in his view, ended in 70 AD, it was everlasting merely in quality, whatever that is supposed to mean. To apply that interpretation elsewhere - such as to the everlasting sin of Mark 3:29 & everlasting shame/contempt of Dan.12:2 & the everlasting destruction of 2 Thess.1:9 & the torments forever and ever of Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 - are they also only everlasting & forever in quality?Would God living (& His glory etc) “forever and ever” in many verses in Revelation & Paul’s epistles also speak merely of a quality & not a duration by the words “for ever and ever” (literally, “into the ages of the ages”)?
“And Davo remember to write with the KISS purpose in mind”:
So there you have it. Davos’s views in plain English that even me & a child could understand.