If I can respectfully reply using davo’s own words:
"Certainly by its very nature much of Scripture is Israel-centric or specific. This however in no way negates its value for believers post Parousia in applying its truths and principles beyond the firstfruits time frame or “age” for this reason: Israel was the redemptive microcosm for what God was outworking redemptively ON BEHALF OF the whole creation – macrocosm. Thus explaining the above…
God predestined-called-elected historic Israel; out of Israel He chose a remnant; through this remnant came the Christ (Messiah); through Christ God called a remnant (the NT firstfruit saints); through this remnant God delivered (saved) all Israel; and in redeemed Israel the whole world obtained the reconciliation.
So then, God’s unilateral covenant with the Gentile Abram that “in you ALL families of the earth would be blessed” Gen 12:3 found fruition in the Seed – Christ, and thus through Christ’s Body – the firstfruit believers, was ministered the redemptive plan and purpose of God for and ON BEHALF OF humanity, ALL humanity. This is how that which had a fixed “this generation” fulfilment, purpose and reality extends through the Parousia embracing all."
Sorry davo, if I stole ur thunder, but by golly, what you said on that other post was so, so, so, true!!
Repentance is always necessary, and nothing that happened via the preterist view negated the fact that individuals needed to understand sin and thus repentance was and still is a necessary part of the Christian walk.
So Paidion… what you’re really saying is the ONLY reason you “repent” is due to some expectant a future judgment; NOT because it might simply be the right thing to do. That sounds just as your moniker “paidion” παιδίον might suggest… the reasoning of “a little child”.
Switching subjects a bit here is another Scripture relevant to the discussion,
1 Corinthians 15:55, "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
There is a textual variant here where many English translations miss the emphasis on Hades. The proper translation is important because it reinforces the hope that the gates of Hades will be defeated as is explicitly shown in Revelation 20:13.
A.E. Knoch tries to use this verse to show that the Lake of Fire will be emptied, because he understood as many Universalists that human beings will be punished in the Lake of Fire. If humans are punished in the LOF, then we need to understand how they will be removed. However, I still think the better model is that the LOF is reserved solely for the damnation of Satan and his fallen angel following, the goats on Jesus’ left.
Unbelieving humans beings, however, are punished in the temporal fires of Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 and numerous other Scripture warn of this punishment, but the greater hope that salvation is promised even for those suffering there.
Though I am intrigued The preterist position that Hades has already been emptied, I just cannot follow the arguments from Scripture. There seems to be a joy that salvation is completed at the cross, which it is, but a denial a remaining sin and God’s loving and just response to mankind’s sin. The victory is won, but there are still skirmishes to be fought.
So Jeff… apart from just asserting and attributing said (bogus IMO) claim to prêterism, can you please source some prêterist material/s making such a contention? I think your… “I just cannot follow the arguments” is probably a more accurate reflection.
I understood you to say that the cross was the fulcrum point before which God had enemies, and after which he did not.
My understanding is in total agreement with your point that God is no man’s enemy for his part. He unconditionally loves his people regardless of their belief or unbelief. However, I don’t believe this gracious attitude of God started at AD33, but from before the creation of the world. Thus AD33 did not change God’s loving forgiveness and discipline toward unbelieving mankind. Furthermore, there is just as much sin within an individual human and all humanity now as there was before the cross. The cross did not remove the existence of sin… yet. So the grace of God is leading, guiding, and disciplining sinful man both before and after the cross is similar ways.
However, since the cross we have the undeniable testimony of God’s love for sinful man. The cross occurred in time (though Christ was slain from creation) in God’s courtroom to settle the legal matter of our justification. All mankind has a righteous legal standing before God as if we have never sinned. Yet we still sin. The cross also shows us that God’s plan of redemption is marching toward a destination.
I apologize if I mis-understood your statement above.
My point was that all mankind continues to sin and that God continues to graciously discipline now, just as he did before the cross. Since I am not a preterist I also believe there is a time line mentioned in Scripture still future, leading to the GWT Judgment and the commencement of glory when all sin is finally removed.
Yes ok, so you have misunderstood me as that quote isn’t saying anything like what you were describing.
“The cross did not remove the existence of sin… yet.” Correct… “death” however takes care of that on all levels! (Rom 6:7). IF there is yet MORE price to be paid for sin postmortem, which in due course said payment rectifies, THEN what need of Christ’s Cross was there in the first place IF some alleged future rectifying by man settles said problem – you’ve just denuded the point and power of Christ’s Cross! Can you not see that?
What the singular Cross-Parousia event established on-behalf-of humanity WAS the permanent removal of the condition of sin in terms of “guilt” as it stood over and against humanity experienced in terms of separation from God… THAT separation is gone, ALL is reconciled, God is at peace with His creation. When man “wakes up” to this reality he catches up to this reality – hence the validity of the post-parousia gospel.
Again, it is the sin condition that God dealt with in Christ (Jn 1:29) NOT our ability to “miss and or fall short of the mark” i.e., sin – we will all do that till the day we step through death’s doorway into God’s blessedness beyond.
Paul in Romans said… “for by the law is the knowledge of sin” – by this he meant the condition of sin (the noun), not the verb; he deals with that here: “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!” The removal of the “condition” in terms of “guilt” (noun) does not mean one cannot practice wrongdoing. This is why James exhorts the brethren to “confess your sins” (ἁμαρτίας) NOT to God BUT “to one another”… thus allowing His healing restoration to flow.
Certainly there is no more price to be paid. Hades still exists to punish the unbelieving wicked dead, but this punishment certainly does not pay any price toward their justification. All are already justified in Christ. If you object to post-mortem punishment then you should also object to pre-mortem punishment.
I do not think that post-mortem punishment denudes the cross of one thing.
Rather Christ for the further ultimate demonstration of his gracious patience with sinful man allows remaining sin and wickedness in his creation even after the glorious display of the cross. It is almost impossible to imagine that Christ would not have removed all sin from creation at the cross. Certainly he removed all condemnation for sin, but he has not yet removed sin. That we are painfully aware of.
However, now the grace of God is further magnified to the highest, even to the amazement of the righteous angels as they witness the patience of God as unbelieving mankind disregards EVEN the crucified and risen Son of God!!! Perhaps one might excuse an unbeliever who never heard of God (yet creation’s witness allows for no excuse there either) but to spurn the crucified and risen Lord??? Imagine the indignation of the righteous angels as they would be willing to destroy sinners today with eternal agonizing pain for our zero and half-hearted efforts to kiss the Son. YET the loving grace of God holds them back and will ALWAYS hold them back till he has accomplished the display of his grace in history and the commencement of glorious sinless eternity begins with the realized salvation of all mankind. His grace is and will be praised to the highest!
So post-mortem punishment remains as long as the display of God’s grace allows for unbelief. It remains as part of his ministry to the unbelieving.
With all due respect Jeff this is shaky semantic equivocation at best. So let me rephrase…
*IF there is yet MORE punishment to be paid for sin postmortem… THEN what need of Christ’s Cross was there in the first place *
And then there’s this from Paul…
Plain and simple! Now again any attempt to deflect away from this by claiming this ONLY applies to those “in Christ” THEN I’d simply challenge the consistency of your Universalist by asking… do you believe humanity is “in Christ”? QED… “death” is the end of sin and thus by logical extension any associated punishment.
**WHY ** You cannot just presume that and then provide no rational reason nor argument for saying such.
This is the problem with “universalism”… you have an INCOMPLETE salvation, always waiting, waiting, waiting for salvation to be “realized” as though Jesus never really quite got it finished. NO!! It is finished!!
“It remains as part of his ministry to the unbelieving.” You are just making this stuff up. What texts of scripture say this
Yes I do. In fact I believe humanity has always been in Christ since day 1. The perfect holiness of God the Father can withstand no sin. And so all of creation itself since the fall is hidden in Christ for the Godhead to demonstrate their amazing grace. I’ve written more about that here dgjc.org/dgjc/in-doctrine. Of course that does not make unbelievers Christians. Christians are those who believe and trust that their sins are hidden in Christ. Non-Christians are in the most pitied condition, fully forgiven and protected by Christ, but not believing the good news.
I thought the rational was obvious. You say post-mortem punishment is unjust. Yet do you agree that God’s punishes both the believing and the unbelieving while they are alive? Has God punished anyone in the history of the world? Cain? The flood? Anaias and Saphyra? Herod? Why is that not unjust then also? What changed? Nothing changed. God’s love for all mankind is constant whether we are dead or alive, as well as across both the old and new covenant.
2 Peter 2 highlights that false teachers, even though they are bought (redeemed and loved by Christ) will be judged, just as some fallen angels are held for judgment in Tartarus. Blackest darkness is reserved for these wicked false teachers. All this is prophesied as future, after the cross. Though of course you may say is was at completed at 70AD. And there we would have a big difference. What would you say? 1 Peter 4:5 also makes it plain that God still judges the living and the dead.
You are incredulous that I believe there is post-mortem punishment? I guess we will find out soon enough.
Our legal justification is finished. The complete proof that God’s love extends to the depth of his enemies hatred is finished. However, the complete removal of my sin and your sin is not finished. You and I are both still waiting for that.
It almost sounds like you are scoffing like those in 2 Peter 3. Though you likely say that coming was all fulfilled at 70AD. I will certainly agree that 70AD was certainly the fulfillment of judgment and destruction of wicked men. However, the promise and description of the Millennial Kingdom have convinced me that the GWT judgment remains yet future for humanity. Thus there remains yet future judgment and destruction of wicked men until Christ has completed the display of his grace. In fact I even believe that he has promised to return physically on this earth as reigning King and sin will still remain within humanity at that point for further display of his amazing grace until the GWT.
Certainly Jeff we come from polar-ends of the eschatological rainbow, and that’s all good, but this may explain why you keep putting words in my mouth that I didn’t actually say and then proceed with all manner of argument against what I allegedly said as a means of NOT dealing with what I actually have said, such as…
I mention nothing about the just or unjust-ness of “post-mortem punishment” – I merely challenge the validity of claiming “postmortem punishment” according to Scriptural evidence… so far you haven’t made your case. Certainly IF I were God there would be a settling of the books in terms of punishment, much punishment (good thing I’m not God)… but that’s my limited human understanding colouring my expectations; I suspect all our expectations will be blown out of the water, so to speak.
So, according to your theology “All are already justified in Christ” – what Scriptural evidence does your position provide showing that once “justified” postmortem punishment STILL prevails? What does THAT say about the so-called ‘justifying power of Christ’ as per your position? (again denuding the Cross of its power)
You can leave me out of that and I’ll let you own that one totally for yourself. There is “no sin” (the offence thereof) separating me from God. The ONLY separation my own errant actions bring is that of between me and my fellows, whoever they might be. It is however in my best interests to learn to enact the freedom that “the reconciliation” has wrought. I can best do this by imbibing of the principled truths of Scripture as per Jas 1:21 which works healing deliverance toward myself and others as per Jas 5:16 etc.
Again, your theology has “the display of his grace” equating to a “future judgment and destruction of wicked men” lol… I’m not you can see it but this above is a MASSIVE contradiction in and of itself!
What you interpret as “mocking” is simply my nudging attempts to open your eyes to the rabid inconsistencies of your position.
Nope. I wasn’t making a statement of my own in any way. I was only interpreting the two cartoons that I posted, according to the contrary messages that the sign-holders were giving.
Do you then believe those drowned in the flood where eternally damned and outside of God’s grace?
Do you also believe Anias and Saphyra where eternally damned and outside of God’s grace?
Like the ancient’s of the flood Ananias Sapphira paid the temporal price for their really bad choice i.e., the loss of their lives, period. That does not IMO equate to being “damned” temporarily or endlessly beyond THIS LIFE… their untimely deaths WAS the “judgement” they suffered.
Again… according to your theology “All are already justified in Christ” – what Scriptural evidence does your position provide showing that ONCE justified in Christ postmortem punishment STILL prevails? – what texts, NOT arguments BUT texts?
In the context of ‘The Revelation’ – thus the last days period of the OC… those who “overcame” imbibed of the rewards in the parousia associated with faithfulness and or martyrdom.
The key point upon which my question is asked, that being relative to the justified does… “postmortem punishment STILL prevails?”
This cannot be avoided and needs answering
Luke 16 - a man is punished in Hades after he died and was buried, before the cross.
Revelation 20:4-6 - the wicked dead remain not resurrected in Hades, after the cross, yet future from 2016.
Revelation 20:13-14 - the wicked dead are extracted from Hades, after the cross, at the commencement of glorious eternity.
The Lazarus story is about Israel, about a people about to be judged. The use of ‘Father Abraham’ and the ending of ‘let them look to Moses and the Prophets for they will not believe one raised from the dead’ is obviously a parable for the ones Christ came for… notably the stubborn Israelites. (I can’t help but think Dickens might have had this scripture in mind when working on his famous work.)
Johns Revelation is just that, the revelation of what Christ did. Not what he was going to do. Through Israel all have been reconciled. The Redeemer has arrived. God has done what the prophets have for ever been prophesying about.
I thought that since this thread is a bit old, I would quote Mr. Beck’s original post.
Lk 16 is a parable and NOT a theological breakdown of postmortem existence pre-cross.
Rev 20:4-6 says NONE of that.
So the logic you’re running with has the bulk of humanity suffering torturous torments in hades until as you put it “the commencement of glorious eternity” – so the longer the Parousia is delayed, delayed,delayed the longer God gets to “minister” (cough) anguish and pain upon the justified no less, because according to you postmortem punishment still prevails. WHAT A MESS!
No. I understand there to be punishment in Hades, governed by Christ’s loving hand. I never said it was torturous torments for the entire time. Though of course the the Rich man described it as agony. Just because I agree with some of the non-preterist and partial-preterist camp, please do not assume I have bought their whole party line. In the case of the punishments in Hades I Peter 3:18 - 4:6 points to post-mortem salvation as well.
Here are some questions I would have for you…
You seem angry in the discussion, simply declaring that Luke 16 is a parable without any consideration to the arguments that is it not a parable. For example Revelation 20 explains that people are removed from Hades. Is that then also a parable?
How you explain Revelation 20:4-5?
How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?
Do you believe Jesus physically ascended in Acts 1? Physically descended in 70AD?
What is the beginning and end of the 1000 years in your model of understanding?
Just for the record, I also believe that Jesus ‘came’ in judgment in 70 AD, but I also believe his second coming physically is still future.
BUT “to one another”… thus allowing His healing restoration to flow.
*
** You cannot just presume that and then provide no rational reason nor argument for saying such.
What texts of scripture say this 