The Evangelical Universalist Forum

On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Featured Writers Dr Richard Beck
#90

Band on the money he got that right!

#91

Lk 16 is a parable and NOT a theological breakdown of postmortem existence pre-cross.

Rev 20:4-6 says NONE of that.

So the logic you’re running with has the bulk of humanity suffering torturous torments in hades until as you put it “the commencement of glorious eternity” – so the longer the Parousia is delayed, delayed,delayed the longer God gets to “minister” (cough) anguish and pain upon the justified no less, because according to you postmortem punishment still prevails. WHAT A MESS! :blush:

#92

No. I understand there to be punishment in Hades, governed by Christ’s loving hand. I never said it was torturous torments for the entire time. Though of course the the Rich man described it as agony. Just because I agree with some of the non-preterist and partial-preterist camp, please do not assume I have bought their whole party line. In the case of the punishments in Hades I Peter 3:18 - 4:6 points to post-mortem salvation as well.

Here are some questions I would have for you…

  1. You seem angry in the discussion, simply declaring that Luke 16 is a parable without any consideration to the arguments that is it not a parable. For example Revelation 20 explains that people are removed from Hades. Is that then also a parable?

  2. How you explain Revelation 20:4-5?

  3. How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

  4. Do you believe Jesus physically ascended in Acts 1? Physically descended in 70AD?

  5. What is the beginning and end of the 1000 years in your model of understanding?

Just for the record, I also believe that Jesus ‘came’ in judgment in 70 AD, but I also believe his second coming physically is still future.

#93

I’m not “angry” though a little peeved… you clearly and blatantly say “All are already justified in Christ.” I know what Paul CLEARLY says about the justified being glorified – I simply want you to give the scripture that says “the justified” experience post-mortem punishment in hades – which is what you allege. I’m not interested in cryptic interpretations, plain text would do.

#94

Hi Jeff,

What do you think these verses mean?

Thanks

#95

Seems a little unfair to so easily reject my understanding and then not answer my question. Oh well I am over it already.

I do agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture.

However, I do not believe that was his second coming in the flesh. I understand passages like Acts 1:11, Revelation 20:4, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to be speaking about the return of Christ as reigning king in the flesh, at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom on this earth.

Some of my understanding might sound like Scofield dispensationalism, however, that is not where I am coming from. I best fit into what Millard Erickson calls historical dispensationalism. This view recognizes the 70ad judgment, acknowledges a future Millennial reign, but skips some of the curious Scofieldisms. Erickson would propose that the rapture at the return of Christ does not take Christians up into Heaven, but we meet him in the air and then descend to reign with him during the 1,000 years.

Erickson’s book, “A Basic Guide to Eschatology” is a good read even if you find you do not agree with him. He is not a restorationist, but that does not detract from his good observations.

Ok, now how do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

#96

Jeff it also “seems a little unfair” that you demand answers to questions and for the most part get them, but then refuse to answer a basic question based off what you have clearly stated; so let me repeat…

Apologies IF I’ve missed the scripture/s plainly stating this… point me to where you are on this.

#97

Forgive me if I sounded impatient. I thought I already answered that earlier.

Did you read my article?

#98

Hi Jeff,
I’ll be your huckleberry… Oh I think Randy covered that in another thread.

No, honestly, I’ll put my 2 cents worth in as a bit how I see that scripture. I will admit there are many out there who have a much solider grasp of the topic than me :smiley: :smiley:

Jeff you said,
“I do agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture.”

So the first question is how many times (in scripture) does it say Christ will return?

If we look at:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

We see that whatever they are expecting is not an fleshly earth changing event. So Paul’s is not saying look out the door and see for yourself, for if they were expecting an apocalypse in the fleshly sense, he could very well have said just that.

Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

I take this as Jesus talking about his second coming and he obviously speaks of some who are standing right there will be alive when this ‘return’ happens.

So if we believe these Mathew verses, we will have to adjust our lenses (way we look at scripture) to figure out what 1 thes 4:13-18 is speaking of.

We see in:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

So stuff is happening and things are getting close. But what ever is going on, they are having to ask questions… (did it happen, is it happening?)

Matthew 17:10-12 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 “But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

So now we come to our text. You have already said you agree that Christ ‘came’ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70ad to punish the unbelieving Jews who crucified the Messiah, as Christ prophesied in Scripture."

I will also assume you are talking about Matthew chpt 24, in regards to that.

There is an interesting comparison I found that compares our Mat verses with our 1 thes verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

A comparison between 1 Thessalonians 4-5 and Matthew 24 is fascinating.

  1. Christ Himself Returns Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
  2. From Heaven Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:16
  3. With a Shout Matt. 24:30 (in power) I Thess. 4:16
  4. Accompanied by Angels Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
  5. With Trumpet of God Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:16
  6. Believers Gathered Matt. 24:31 I Thess. 4:17
  7. In Clouds Matt. 24:30 I Thess. 4:17
  8. Time Unknown Matt. 24:36 I Thess. 5:1-2
  9. Will Come as a Thief Matt. 24:43 I Thess. 5:2,4
  10. Believers Unaware of Impending Judgment Matt. 24:37-39 I Thess. 5:3
  11. Judgment Comes as Travail upon Expectant Mother Matt. 24:8 I Thess. 5:3
  12. Believers to Watch Matt. 24:42 I Thess. 5:4
  13. Warning Against Drunkenness Matt. 24:49 I Thess. 5:7

So I would say whatever Paul is saying, he is merely re telling what the lord said through the Olivet discourse.

The reform preacher R C Sproul even says:

Dr. R.C. Sproul and other scholars propose a third way of interpreting Matthew 24:1–35, which argues that “the substance of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in AD 70” (The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 158). Our studies to come will advocate this approach. The main advantage of this view is that it takes seriously the time-frame references found in the Olivet Discourse. It also focuses on the context of the discourse — our Lord’s prediction of the fall of the temple (Matt. 24:2) — providing a coherent answer to the question as to when these things will take place (v. 3), that is, when Jerusalem and its temple will be destroyed

I think, just as Paul all along taught the gentile churches, we are talking about an age ending and a new one unfolding, in the spiritual sense.

Just a humble thought. :smiley:

#99

You are right - I did. But I’ll refresh everyone’s memory :exclamation: :exclamation: :laughing:

#100

Thanks @maintenanceman

Yes I agree with much of that without having the time right now to debate the details. However, it seems to me that it is too difficult to compress all these prophetic passages to 70ad. To be sure Revelation is John’s contribution to the Olivet Discourse, but he also contributes more detail and I think more future. That is why I fall into the partial preterist line of thinking. The passages that I find too difficult to find fulfillment in 70ad include …

Job 19:25
Acts 1
1 Thess 4:16-17
parts of Matt 24
Revelation 20:4-5

It should be noted that Sproul has also said he believes in multiple parousiasi, while still looking for a return of Christ in the flesh.

Also regarding the justification of those punished in Hades, the heart of my conclusion is that I believe all mankind was justified at the cross. I understand that faith does not cause justification, but receives our justification. I think I may have pointed you to the wrong article. Check this one if still interested. dgjc.org/dgjc/justified.

#101

Thanx Jeff,

Yes Sproul does fall into the partial preterist view. All well and good. He still has time to come to the light side! :smiley: I just mentioned this for a reference to what others view mat 24 as.

As you already know the (or at least one of the) major chasm between full and partial preterist’s is the idea of a fleshly resurrection. Bodies (fleshly) being rejuvenated and made glorious. Where are the bodies?

Good luck and I’ll be sure to check out your link!

Thanks,

Chad

#102

Thanks and on your last question I thought that was my question to you :slight_smile:. Where are the bodies?

My understanding is the resurrection of the body or at least final glorification remains still future for all mankind.

#103

Jeff,

Glorification is complete.
It is finished, as the Christ said.

You are looking through a view of personal salvation as opposed to a covenant view of what God had done through Israel/Christ and thus the church for the reconciliation of His creation.

You are looking to the future, and I am simply looking to the cross as the ultimate reconciler.

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Halleluiah

Thanks!

Chad

#104

But Jeff… you deliberately keep avoiding by deflection from what I’ve actully asked, continuously, i.e., for “scriptural” evidence to your contention THAT… “Hades still exists to punish the unbelieving wicked dead, but this punishment certainly does not pay any price toward their justification. All are already justified in Christ.” I am NOT challenging your notion that “that humanity is in Christ” so you can stop giving that answer.

And in reading your article this is the closest I came to finding anything remotely touching what you’ve said above…

Well this is all nice and dandy BUT apart from this assertion of yours that such is true there is given NO scriptural evidence to prove such is true. I have to therefore conclude Jeff that your position is in error scripturally speaking as you will not/cannot show otherwise.

Again… consider the logic: IF Christ Himself bore the penalty for SIN at Calvary (when we were yet enemies) how do you then find yet MORE sin that Jesus didn’t suffer for (apparently) that the justified in hades postmortem STILL has to suffer themselves to rectify (thus who really needs Jesus’ sacrifice) for themselves??? LIKE I said… your theory, and THAT’S all it’s proving to be, denudes the Cross of its power. (Can you NOT see the FAULT in your logic Jeff?)

And yet as Paul would say “what saith the Scripture…”

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Again Jeff there seems to be daylight and lots of it between what you say the scripture says and what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say. :unamused:

#105

@davo

I am trying to understand your objections, but the fault in the logic still seems to be yours.

Here is my simple logic.

  1. Scripture proves that the cross paid for the sins and justified all mankind, Romans 5:12-21. Do you disagree that God loves all mankind?
  2. Scripture proves that people are still punished after the cross, Acts 5:1-11. Do you disagree that God loved and saved Anaias and Sapphira?
  3. Scripture proves that the wicked dead are still detained in Hades after the cross, Revelation 20:5, 13. Do you agree that Hades will be emptied?
  4. Conclusion God loves all mankind, before and after the cross whether dead or alive, or rewarded or temporarily punished.

This statement seems to be the error in your logic. I have already said that the penalties given to the unbelieving do nothing to justify them before the Lord. Only the cross accomplished that. Punishment and discipline do not serve the purpose of justification. Until you let go of that I am not sure you will see my point or acknowledge the Scriptures I am highlighting.

I am a father of four children myself. I am not the best parent, but I sought to discipline my children in love for their own benefit. I tried to make a point of telling them that they were forgiven by the Lord even if I didn’t properly demonstrate it and to my best ability they were forgiven by me even before I served their punishment. Punishment was not given to justify them to me. It was given to teach them. Hebrews 12:7-11.

So many universalists acknowledge these points. Talbott’s book, the Inescapable Love of God was my favorite on the subject of the nature of God’s discipline of the unbelieving after death. The points made are that eternal punishment would be unjust, but temporal discipline could and would only serve a loving purpose if God determined it.

@maintenanceman

Will there be a time in the future when my back pain is permanently removed and I no longer sin?

#106

And WHERE Jeff does THIS say such applies “postmortem” – which is your argument – the one you won’t/can’t substantiate.

Yeah… AND BEFORE the parousia; the parousia is past, thus so is hades! Ergo… no ongoing loving torture being “ministered” to the justified by Jesus.

http://old.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/headbash.gif http://old.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/headshot.gif… lol Jeff, NOWHERE have I said nor intimated anything like punishment and discipline serve the purpose of justification. Sorry Jeff but I have to call you on this… you are just making this stuff up, maybe to pad out your posts I don’t know, BUT this is far from reality.

Yes… when you are physically dead.

#108

Is this tied by any way to Nero playing the fiddle - while Rome burned?

#109

This “could” involve postmortem BUT it does necessitate it… remember, according to Mt 16:27-28 the gain or loss of rewards at the parousia didn’t require physical death – “some standing here” were to be alive and “remaining” (1Thess 4:15) i.e., surviving through this historical/covenantal EVENT. WHAT such rewards looked like and HOW such rewarding transpired we simple are not told. However John does refer “to him that overcomes will I grant…” etc, which appears more relational than tangible in terms of “reward” – which IF that was the case would be in-line with Jesus’ previous definitive definition of “eternal life” being NOT quantitative endless existence BUT qualitative relational LIFE, as per Jn 17:3; 10:10b et al; IOW… blessedness of life in the here and now.

But that aside and to be clear… from the pantelist perspective there was great “loss” in the fires of AD70, which by the way weren’t restricted to the Jewish Capitol, but the 1Cor 3:15 passage refers specifically to “believers” i.e., the justified and there was/is NO ‘hades’ then or thereafter for them to be in torments in – the notion is simply false.

#111

As a pantelist “the lake of fire” doesn’t exist. John’s ‘the lake of fire’ equates to Jesus’ ‘Gehenna’ i.e., the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. This was Israel’s (Jerusalem’s) “second death” aka “lake of fire” – the first death being Nebuchadnezzar’s 587BC rout and ruination of the same.

Remember John’s ‘Revelation’ was “symbolic” – it was “signified” (Rev 1:1) – by way of signs <ἐσήμανεν esēmanen> (symbol i.e., picture-words) of “things which must shortly take place.”