On sequences, timing, progression of events…

[TotalVictory]

(Note: Long build up to a fairly short question/comment. Hope I don’t make it more complicated than it needs to be…)

When it comes to end times events, I was raised with some pretty specific (and fairly dogmatic) timelines. Given that we are creatures with a beginning in time and that we live our lives in sequences – a progression of events – this need for timelines seems understandable.

Our sequence went something like this:
The Cross – Tribulation – 2nd coming/Resurrection of the Saved – Millennium ruling with Christ – “2nd” Resurrection (resurrection of the condemned) – Last Judgement – Destruction of the wicked – Eternal Bliss with God where sin shall be no more…

Now of course this general sequence can be greatly expanded and details added almost endlessly. And it’s not my intention to discuss or argue any of these details or the correctness of the sequences. Suffice to say that Christians have real disagreements on these things.

Instead, I’d like to make particular note of 2 very distinct kinds of biblical passages: The first are very optimistic and triumphal and without hint of pain or loss or suffering. Very much underlining the Total Victory of God, through Christ.
The second group of texts can really make one squirm; they describe the wrenching anguish of those who for all intents seem to be “caught in God’s crosshairs” of vengeance. Texts about whose fate is commonly thought to be doom and loss – either ECT or annihilation.

Examples of the doom texts might include:

Revelation 6:15-17
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

and

Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

While examples of the Comprehensive Victory of God might include:

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

and

Phil 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Thus my question/observation runs along these lines…
Given that one should try to include all of scriptures content when formulating his ideas and theologies, one would assume that both sets of texts must be included. However, it seems equally obvious to me that when these sets of texts are placed in some sort of sequence (ie what happens when) along a timeline, the triumph texts necessarily must come after – and therefore supersede, or trump, the depressing portrayals of the condemned/lost/doomed.

Thus we can affirm that yes, there was a time when those anguished and awful scenes of fear and dread actually happened – HOWEVER – after those events came the Total Victory of God. Thus the state of affairs which is left with us as the permanent state is the victorious one, the former state of anguish and fear thus being temporary.

It simply would seem incoherent and absurd to place the anguish/loss texts as sequentially coming after the “Victory” texts. That Complete Victory would be followed by doom/despair/loss is non-sensical.

Thus I think that (and wonder if you do too) the presence of both kinds of texts necessarily is an argument for Universalism…
Bobx3

[Cindy_Skillman]

Good point, Bob. I don’t understand a lot of this prophecy stuff; everyone has such different views from everyone else; but I think you’re right. These things must agree; God doesn’t ask us to believe a contradiction, though we do find plenty of paradoxidal pictures in scripture. One day we will understand, but for now, we know that God is loving and merciful and can be counted on not to change.